00:00:00:00 - 00:00:00:06
Courtney
As I've gotten older, the fear of the ocean has actually increased. The ocean hasn't changed, but this fear has increased. And what I have done is instead of looking at the fear, I've gotten out on the water more

00:00:11:18 - 00:00:17:04
Courtney
because I know that the more I'm exposed to it, the more that I do it, the more I realize that there's not a whole lot to fear

00:00:17:04 - 00:00:27:15
Courtney
So I think that that's the same in our relationships. Does that the less we act, the more it becomes a bigger thing in our head because we're ruminating. That narrative is really powerful.

00:00:27:15 - 00:01:11:19
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to the Personal Development School Podcast. I am so excited you are here. I am your co-host, Titus Gibson, along with our new special host, Mike Vizio. This is a podcast that discusses everything related to integrated attachment theory. The New attachment theory, along with the subconscious mind relationships, communication needs boundaries and so much more. Throughout this podcast, you'll see a series of episodes I upload with new information, educational tips, all about how to thrive in relationships and really master your emotional state in your life, along with special guests hosted by Mike Zito to discuss all of these amazing topics and longer form content.

00:01:11:21 - 00:01:20:19
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for being here and I really hope you enjoy this episode.

00:01:20:19 - 00:01:44:10
Mike
My guest today is a full time writer, speaker and teacher. Her work focuses on reminding women of their worth. Supporting them with practical tools to break free from codependency while establishing a healthy boundary practice. Talking with us today about her new book, Loyal to a Fault How to Establish New Patterns When Loving Others has Left You Hurting and so much more.

00:01:44:12 - 00:01:49:23
Mike
I'd like to introduce my guest today. Courtney Birch. Hello, Courtney. Are you doing.

00:01:50:00 - 00:01:51:07
Courtney
Good? How are you doing?

00:01:51:07 - 00:01:53:24
Mike
Very well. Thank you for being with us today.

00:01:54:01 - 00:01:54:24
Courtney
Thank you.

00:01:54:24 - 00:02:02:21
Mike
So, Claudia, if our audience hasn't heard of yet, I was just wonder if you could just spend a few moments letting us know who you are, what you do, and maybe a little bit of your back story.

00:02:02:21 - 00:02:22:12
Courtney
Sure. Yeah. As you said, I'm a full time writer. I'm a student right now. I'm back in grad school. I'm also a wife. We're actually celebrating ten years this May, which is unbelievable. And I have four children under the age of eight. So when I'm not doing fun things like this with you, I'm doing fun things with them.

00:02:22:14 - 00:02:45:07
Mike
Well, you must be super busy. But congratulations on ten years. That's I think you would. We love to hear that. So we know, you know, a lot of people get into coaching and sort of self-development work and helping others because of their own sort of journey and maybe struggle with some issues. I was just wondering, in your own life, was there a catalyst, a rock bottom moment?

00:02:45:08 - 00:02:51:01
Mike
What was sort of the reason? What pushed you into doing this and delivering your great work out there to everyone?

00:02:51:03 - 00:03:17:19
Courtney
Absolutely, yeah. There's always something writing and I you know, early on I didn't know what a boundary was. I didn't know what codependency was. I just knew that I was really suffering inside my relationships. And I couldn't quite figure out why. Now I know that I was just a people pleaser and highly enmeshed. Meaning just overlapped with the thoughts and needs and feelings of those around me.

00:03:17:19 - 00:03:39:00
Courtney
And actually my body started breaking down first. And so I didn't even really mentally, cognitively understand it, but I was having shingles outbreaks and I was struggling with insomnia and stomach issues and I was having panic attacks. And again, I didn't know why I went to the doctor had bloodwork done and he said, you know, you're really healthy.

00:03:39:00 - 00:04:00:14
Courtney
You're a 20 something year old, there's nothing wrong. And I was like, Well, then what is going on? I shouldn't be having all of this, you know, all these symptoms. And I at the time was also drinking and so the drinking wasn't really helping the anxiety. And then the cycle started happening where the drinking started to increase and the anxiety started to increase.

00:04:00:16 - 00:04:19:17
Courtney
And I was newly married and my husband said, you know, this has gotten out of control. And so over the course of sobriety, I learned that I really didn't have any boundaries in my friendships and my relationships with family. And because of that, I was losing myself and I was suffering and I didn't quite know how to come out of it.

00:04:19:17 - 00:04:23:02
Courtney
But the boundary work was really the beginning of that for me.

00:04:23:04 - 00:04:40:24
Mike
Wow. I'm sure a lot of our audience are going to relate with that. And similar to what you shared, like, I had never even heard of the word codependency and enmeshment up until like four years ago. So yeah, when you're going through these things and you don't know what the issue is, it can be really frustrating and challenging.

00:04:41:01 - 00:04:58:14
Mike
But thank you for sharing that with us. So people pleasing, as you mention, was a is a big area that you help people with and that you were a big people pleaser before. As you mentioned, for all the people pleasers out there. Can you break down for us like why do we people please and like, where does this start, do you think?

00:04:58:14 - 00:04:59:20
Mike
For most of us.

00:05:00:02 - 00:05:27:02
Courtney
Yeah, that's a great question. I do think that there is an underlying deprivation. So, you know, maybe early in childhood in our family of origin, I walk readers through this in my book as we start to unpack, well, how did I first receive that connection and love and what did that look like? Because that pattern often comes with us into adulthood and so take, for instance, you know, maybe you had a dad who was not able to really take care of himself, whether financially, physically, emotionally.

00:05:27:02 - 00:05:47:21
Courtney
And he relied a lot on you. And you liked that because you were able to stay connected and close to him. Now, as an adult, some of the women that I work with, you know, they have a hard time dating because they are always the emotional one, the one that's depended on, and they can actually be taken care of or even incorporated in their own dating life.

00:05:47:23 - 00:06:09:11
Courtney
And so we begin to to develop these these patterns of behavior to secure that connection that we all want. We want to be safe in our relationships. We want to feel loved and give love. And so this coping skill of people pleasing becomes one of the ways in which we manufacture that consistent connection with people, even if it's unhealthy for us.

00:06:09:13 - 00:06:10:06
Mike
Sure.

00:06:10:06 - 00:06:25:05
Mike
So it's a strategy we used as like a child to gain love and affection and all those things that we badly want. And then if we don't start to realize that and reprogram that, we're carrying that into adulthood and just repeating the same pattern over and over.

00:06:25:07 - 00:06:26:03
Courtney
Absolutely.

00:06:26:05 - 00:06:39:00
Mike
Yeah, for sure. That's that's tough. What would you say to the side effects of people pleasing? What are sort of some of the negative long term symptoms someone might feel if they don't sort of tackle people pleasing?

00:06:39:02 - 00:07:02:09
Courtney
Sure. So, you know, mine might have been a little bit more extreme for most, you know, with the physical. I do think like sometimes the migraines, the insomnia, the an inability to really fall asleep with peace, you know, we shouldn't be laying up at night, unable to sleep because we're worried about somebody being mad at us. That could be a common symptom that some of us have been able to really just stuff away and think, well, it's just I'm busy.

00:07:02:11 - 00:07:24:07
Courtney
But, you know, I think some of the other symptoms that maybe are less obvious is just that underlying current of worries throughout the day, like unsettled that well, they didn't get back to me on that text right away. Maybe I hurt their feelings or gosh, I really you know, I don't I'm not able to really do that thing to help her, but I'm going to do it anyway because I care about her.

00:07:24:07 - 00:07:45:13
Courtney
But it's going to actually put me out in this other area. And so Overscheduled is a is a common symptom that, you know, the world will tell us. Well, that's because you're productive. Well, no, not necessarily. Sometimes we have a hard time saying no to things in our schedule. And so that's another common symptom of people. Pleasing is just being really too busy all the time.

00:07:45:15 - 00:08:04:13
Mike
For sure. For sure. I remember hearing once that somebody was saying, like, if you're like so busy to the point where you're just always go, go, go, grind, grind, grind. In our society, sometimes that sounds like a good thing, but then this other person was saying, No, like that probably means you have no boundaries and your work life balance is like completely out of whack.

00:08:04:15 - 00:08:26:23
Mike
But yeah, those are all really interesting things you mentioned there. And you know, again, if we don't talk about those things, your sleep is affected your your sort of low level anxiety through most of the days like can just be really uncomfortable. So moving on to boundaries, boundary is obviously another topic that you you teach a lot about.

00:08:27:00 - 00:08:35:05
Mike
If you are a people pleaser, does this automatically mean you're going to have weak boundaries or is people pleasing and boundaries not always related?

00:08:35:07 - 00:08:57:03
Courtney
I definitely think they're related. You know, those symptoms that we just kind of discussed are just that symptomatic of it. But I really think that the people pleasing stems from a lack of boundaries and there's like they kind of reinforce each other. And so as you said, a lot of people just don't have any boundaries or they're really porous and inconsistent.

00:08:57:03 - 00:09:19:03
Courtney
And so sometimes people will be, you know, the pendulum will swing, they'll be extremely rigid, maybe with a family member, but then the pendulum will swing to another relationship where they're really porous and they're not able to say no. And that's still unhealthy. You know, the strict rigidity over here and the porous, fluid inconsistent on the other side.

00:09:19:05 - 00:09:49:19
Courtney
And so the goal really is to get to that healthy, confident place tuning in to your needs really considering yourself worthy of saying, no, not, you know, not being afraid of it, which often comes just by putting in the reps, you know, dealing with the backlash and people being upset with you. But yeah, I do find that it's not necessarily a cure, but the the less you decide right and act and behave out of people pleasing, the less you'll want to.

00:09:49:20 - 00:10:03:13
Courtney
Because you start to realize that that's from a place of fear. And we can't actually love people when we're afraid of what they think. And so getting further away from that behavior helps it become less appealing, if that makes sense.

00:10:03:16 - 00:10:26:06
Mike
Totally. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So setting boundaries can be extremely scary, as we know for some and for yourself. You know, I'm sure it was scary when you started developing your own boundaries. I can speak for experience when I first started setting boundaries, especially with friends. my gosh, that was like, so scary because, like, you're throwing a grenade and just like, you know, get blown up on.

00:10:26:06 - 00:10:46:01
Mike
But like you said, putting in the reps and making something that's not in your comfort zone, slowly becoming your comfort zone kind of the way we do it. So I want to ask for anyone who knows that they need to set boundaries but don't want to go there because it's so scary. Can you share like a tip or tool or like a mindset that can help them sort of lessen the fear?

00:10:46:01 - 00:11:04:22
Courtney
Absolutely. I don't think that we can actually do anything to lessen the fear other than just doing something different. And what I mean is, you know, I live here in South Florida, and as I've gotten older, you know, I grew up kind of surfing, being at the beach and, you know, being on the water, on boats and, you know, surfing and all that.

00:11:04:24 - 00:11:26:23
Courtney
But As I've getting old, gotten older, the fear of the ocean has actually increased. The ocean hasn't changed, but this fear has increased. And what I have done is instead of looking at the fear, I've gotten out on the water more because I know that the more I'm exposed to it, the more that I do it, the more I realize that there's not a whole lot to fear or the chances of something really happening are quite slim.

00:11:27:00 - 00:11:45:20
Courtney
So I think that that's the same in our relationships. Does that the less we act, the more it becomes a bigger thing in our head because we're ruminating. That narrative is really powerful. And the other thing is to giving people the benefit of the doubt. They might actually very well want to love you the way that you need them to.

00:11:45:22 - 00:12:04:20
Courtney
And so I like to look at boundaries as a bid for connection, meaning, you know, give them a shot, you know, say, hey, listen, I can't do this today or this is actually what I need today. Or would you mind calling before you stop by next time and giving people an opportunity to show up for you in the ways that you've probably consistently shown up for them?

00:12:04:22 - 00:12:20:04
Courtney
And again, the fear doesn't go away, but we start to work through it and then through that practice and then through those wraps, you think to yourself, Wow, what was I so worried about for so long? Yeah, I think that sitting paralyzed is probably adding to the fear more than anything, for.

00:12:20:05 - 00:12:21:20
Mike
Sure, the inaction.

00:12:21:20 - 00:12:37:04
Mike
And I love that you said, like other people, you'll probably be shocked at like how willing they are to, like, show up for you. And because you're the person who's always giving, giving, giving, then when you finally ask for something, they're probably like super happy about it. Like, Yeah, of course. Like, I'd love to ask for you.

00:12:37:06 - 00:12:58:21
Mike
So, you know, give people, give people that chance. So and I love the analogy about the ocean thing. That's that's awesome. So I want to talk about and one of your Instagram posts, it says the discomfort of confronting someone imperfectly when they're out of line is far better than suffering the suffering that ensues when you don't.

00:12:58:23 - 00:13:24:07
Mike
Yeah. So then you go on to say, I know that you want to find the perfect moment to approach conflict and a perfect world that would exist. But it doesn't. There's no perfect moment. This is a cycle that ends up with has never speaking up at all because the moment never presents itself. So this is such a powerful message because I think a lot of the fear lies within not delivering it like eloquently or the person will have a bad reaction to it.

00:13:24:09 - 00:13:35:12
Mike
Can you explain this concept of how we don't have to be perfect in our delivery, but we have to say something? And what happens if we don't say anything? Sort of What's the alternative if we don't say anything?

00:13:35:12 - 00:13:56:13
Courtney
Sure. So over the course of working with like hundreds of women, I realized that this theme was coming up that like, I want to get it right. And I realized like, well, we we're not going to really get it right. Meaning it's going to be a practice. It's a dance with people. It's a it's a, you know, skill, this boundary, this communication style that a lot of us aren't practiced at.

00:13:56:15 - 00:14:18:07
Courtney
And one example in particular that I shared about in the book was I had a friend that had shared with me that she was working with this girl, and the girl had kind of in passing, had mentioned that she had formerly made out with her now husband, like kind of off the cuff and and she didn't know what to say at the time because they were in a professional environment.

00:14:18:07 - 00:14:37:22
Courtney
It was uncomfortable, but B, she was like just really caught off guard and hurt by that kind of passive aggressive comment. But what happened? Because she was unable to say anything at all, even if it was done in perfectly or even out of anger, even because anger is not entirely bad emotion. It's you know, what we do with that anger.

00:14:37:22 - 00:15:01:12
Courtney
We have to be careful. But she said nothing at all. And this is what happened. She had weeks of suffering. Her and her husband got into arguments. She wasn't present with her daughter. She felt ashamed that she wasn't able to speak up, which is why role playing is one of the tools that I that I share in the book that that practicing something until we feel better at it or more equipped at it.

00:15:01:14 - 00:15:19:08
Courtney
And so I always encourage women that, yeah, you're not going to be good at it for a while. Like it's going to be messy for a while. It's going to come out and perfectly maybe unkind. The goal is always to be confident and kind and clear with your boundary, but that's not going to happen right away. Just like my my daughter's learning the guitar.

00:15:19:08 - 00:15:44:10
Courtney
Let me tell you, it doesn't sound that great right now like it does it. But she's getting there. She's showing up. And so in those uncomfortable situations, we have to do the messy thing and imperfectly set a boundary so that we're not suffering for weeks after in this like emotional hangover or this emotional disappointment in ourselves and show up imperfectly so that over time we can get better at it.

00:15:44:10 - 00:15:50:00
Courtney
The goal isn't perfection. And as you said, the perfect time is never going to present itself.

00:15:50:16 - 00:16:08:19
Mike
I love that. I love that reframe where we take take your pack. You could either sacrifice feeling a little awkward or uncomfortable or not perfect for a moment, or take weeks and weeks and maybe months of suffering on your own. So that's a really good reframe and something to keep in mind the next time we want to speak up.

00:16:09:00 - 00:16:37:11
Mike
So thank you for that. So in another Instagram post, you talk about how part of healing from codependency is uprooting, uprooting the limiting belief that your helping serving are doing for others what they can't do for themselves. And often they can't do that thing because they are choosing not to. So when we feel that we love others as much as we say we do, we have to do the hard, messy work of letting them feel the pain of their choices and behavior.

00:16:37:13 - 00:16:56:01
Mike
Yeah, well, truth to accept. But you may be in the way of what's getting them the help and healing they need. Yeah. So that last line is probably hard for people to accept that they might be part of the reason why their loved ones are not healing. I don't know if you can dig into that a little bit and how like over helping our loved ones might in fact be holding them back.

00:16:56:01 - 00:17:23:21
Courtney
Yeah, it's it's a very hard truth to swallow. I've had to swallow and it's very hard and here's why. I thought that being a people pleaser or being codependent, meaning, you know, swooping in and rescuing and saving and helping people was because I cared about them. And I think to some degree I did and I do. But I actually cared more about my control in that relationship and the outcome of that person.

00:17:23:23 - 00:17:46:09
Courtney
So, again, going back to the discomfort piece, we hate when we are hurting, but it's even harder to see somebody we care about hurting because we actually have to surrender that over. We cannot step in and make somebody get sober, make them pay their bills, make them work on their marriage, make them be a better parent, make them lose weight, made them We can't do anything.

00:17:46:09 - 00:18:25:19
Courtney
We cannot do any of that. And so that was one of the things that I had to to really come to terms with is that I didn't like having to sit by and and not control the other person. And I think that a lot of times that's part of the responsibility piece is that we are so conditioned into believing that to love people while means to step into their problems and fix them for them, which in reality people often fix their own problems in their own time, in their own way.

00:18:25:19 - 00:18:50:06
Courtney
And that actually is what catapults them out of that problem. Yeah, that their own responsibility piece there I share in the book that I stepped in time and time again to help my brother, who is battling with addiction and lost his job and lost his car. And I was paying his rent over and over and over again and would still be surprised that he actually wouldn't pay his rent with that, that he would go use the money for something else.

00:18:50:08 - 00:19:11:21
Courtney
And and what happens is, is it was self-serving because I felt like I was swooping in and helping and being, you know, the hero of this story, which is not my job. And he actually needs to be the hero in his story, not me. And that's letting somebody feel my love by saying, no, you've got to get out of this.

00:19:11:23 - 00:19:33:08
Courtney
And sitting back and really sitting on my hands and saying, gosh, it's so hard to see him suffer. But I might actually be the thing in the way of him getting sober or him keeping a job or him taking care of his kid finally. And so I was that last little safety net and I had to take ownership over that, which was really hard.

00:19:33:08 - 00:19:53:10
Mike
It is hard, but like you said, like if you don't let them sort of develop their own resilience and empowerment, then they're always going to have that safety net. And, you know, when you have a safety net, I think it's human nature to be like, it's okay. Like I have somebody to bail me out. Like I don't have to take this too seriously.

00:19:53:11 - 00:20:03:04
Mike
So, yeah, I recognize it's a really tough situation to let go of that. But as you said, it's it's going to be better for the person in the long run.

00:20:03:06 - 00:20:04:09
Courtney
It is.

00:20:04:11 - 00:20:20:03
Mike
So I want to dig in a little bit into your book, Loyal to a Fault How to Establish New Patterns When Loving Others Has Left You Hurting. I was curious, like, what was this book born out of? Like, what was the origin of why you felt you needed to put pen to paper and write this book?

00:20:20:05 - 00:21:11:22
Courtney
Sure. For me, you know, I have a strong faith and then I have the strong family and a lot of those worlds didn't mesh well. There was friction and collision, and I was just trying to integrate who I was becoming. My role as a sister, as a daughter, and then a new wife and mom. And so that's really the beginning of that for me, is unpacking, You know, what my responsibility is in these relationships, you know, according to my faith and and what's not and really debunking the myth that, you know, to take care of myself is selfish or to take care of myself, you know, in this family of origin is unkind or unloving.

00:21:11:22 - 00:21:15:15
Courtney
And so that was kind of the beginning phases of that process for me.

00:21:15:18 - 00:21:28:03
Mike
I love that I was writing the book. Did it feel that leveled up your growth? And it sounds like I know you're sharing material that you already know, but did you feel as you're writing the book, you were like sort of growing and leveling up yourself?

00:21:28:03 - 00:21:50:08
Courtney
I was because, you know, for me, writing has always been an outlet, but a lot of the stuff still bounced around in my head. And so it was very therapeutic and like you said, leveled up because I thought, wow, that was really cool to see that. I mean, I'm actually walking about 15 women through the book study now.

00:21:50:08 - 00:22:11:20
Courtney
We started last night and it was really cool because I'm going back and I'm reading I've had a couple of months away from it, and so I'm reading along with them and I'm like, Yeah, that was really good. That's a good step and it's just cool to be a part of because yeah, and to see their revelations and their growth, it keeps it very fresh for me.

00:22:11:20 - 00:22:24:11
Courtney
And of course there's parts around like, Man, I could have added that or taken that here and put it there, but that's just part of being a creative, you know, you always feel like things can be tweaked a little bit more, but I so.

00:22:24:13 - 00:22:27:07
Mike
you should be very proud, very.

00:22:27:07 - 00:22:44:24
Speaker 1
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00:22:44:24 - 00:23:09:04
Speaker 1
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00:23:09:06 - 00:23:16:24
Speaker 1
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00:23:16:24 - 00:23:32:00
Mike
So in your book, it talks about you talk about reframing and what it means to love and remain loyal to those who matter the most. Would you say that most people's idea of love and what we were taught isn't healthy? And probably why a lot of people struggle?

00:23:32:09 - 00:24:11:15
Courtney
I do. I do. I think it's very hard, even as a parent now. So I'm, you know, doing the work of kind of unlearning some stuff and then really learning, but then also teaching my children things that I wasn't taught. And so it's a it's a difficult position to be in a good one. But I do I think that this concept of love, if we look into the world and I speak from a female point of view, so you might have a different point of view, but it really is this sacrificial martyr mentality that I again, almost non-verbally, like I never felt like anybody directly told me, you have to give up your goals in

00:24:11:15 - 00:24:30:08
Courtney
life or you have to be late to work to help them. Or, you know, it was never a verbal thing. It was just this belief that was picked up around loving people and and yeah, and I see it in my mom groups now that like, if your child is in the center of your world, it kind of is because you're not a committed mom.

00:24:30:08 - 00:24:42:07
Courtney
You know, like there's this little messaging there and it goes back to this, you know, belief around love and what that means and what it actually looks like on a practical day to day level.

00:24:42:09 - 00:24:43:12
Mike
Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:43:12 - 00:25:02:20
Mike
I want to talk about in one area of your book, you talked about learning how to create realistic expectations for relationships with people. You can't quit. I really love this because myself being more on the avoidant side of things would sometimes just drop people if they didn't act the way that I wanted them to. So we know we all.

00:25:02:21 - 00:25:24:11
Mike
You can't control anyone else's behavior, but there are some people that you're kind of stuck with for your life. Coworker or as mother in laws, etc. There's people who are going to be there who you might not, you know, somehow they touched you. I was wondering what are some realistic aspects affectations we can have towards people that are going to be with us, whether we like it or not?

00:25:24:15 - 00:25:57:16
Courtney
For me, the reframe that has led me to the most freedom in my relationships is truly trying to trust that people are giving me the capacity of love that they can. And what I mean is, while that might not be enough to my standards and I don't think we should necessarily bend or put ourselves in unhealthy relationships or, you know, go along with like dysfunction or anything like that.

00:25:57:22 - 00:26:20:01
Courtney
But let's just say you said mother in law, right? That's a big one for the women I work with. You know, you're probably not going to change her and she's probably not going to hit the standards that you have in your head of what a mother in law should be. But we can extend compassion, we can hold boundaries, we can hold the line, but we can also extend compassion that maybe they are doing the best they can.

00:26:20:02 - 00:26:44:15
Courtney
I read a quote once and it said something along the lines of, you know, they might not be loving you the way you want, but they are loving you the way they can. And I don't think that anybody comes to the table with this malicious intent of, I'm only going to give you 20% of my love. I just think it's a skill set and a capacity and we all have different ones.

00:26:44:17 - 00:27:09:07
Courtney
And so that's allowed me to open space up to actually love and be loved by that person that sometimes can be difficult because I've changed my perspective. Right. And so if we go into those those situations with somebody and say, maybe this is the best they have, what can I then do with that? It really is freeing it like you're looking at it for lack of a better term.

00:27:09:07 - 00:27:15:03
Courtney
The, you know, the glass half full as opposed to what is this relationship always lacking?

00:27:15:05 - 00:27:33:06
Mike
I love that. Yeah. If you see someone trying their best like that, that's where they're at right now and they're trying and it's not eloquent or perfect, but you know, that's where they're at. And you can either accept it and go with it or, you know, let it really upset you and wish they were different.

00:27:33:11 - 00:27:57:23
Courtney
I also think, too, we go to people in our relationships expecting them to be everything all the time to us. Yeah. And I think that we necessarily have to compartmentalize like, okay, you're my friend for motherhood and you're my friend for work and you're my friend for, you know, working out and but, but we but that's that's not a problem either.

00:27:58:00 - 00:28:15:18
Courtney
You know, we can enjoy the best of what somebody has to offer. And then the areas that they lack, we can essentially outsource and not hold them to a standard that they may never be able to live up to. And so we we unhook them and we're better able to enjoy them.

00:28:15:20 - 00:28:34:24
Mike
I thought that makes a lot of sense just how we're not perfect in every area. And, you know, I probably wouldn't want someone to come to me to, like, build a table or do something with my hands, you know? But I'm amazing at and people can come to me and I'll show up really well. So I love that reframe.

00:28:35:01 - 00:28:53:07
Mike
So you talk about communication in one of your chapters. You mentioned that healthy conflict isn't responsible for why loving people do unloving things. Avoiding conflict. Is that reason? Can you explain to us what the cost is of avoiding conflict? And why is conflict so scary for us in relationships?

00:28:53:07 - 00:29:22:03
Courtney
Conflict is so scary because we actually don't know how to do it. Meaning we were modeled potentially caregivers that would either be aggressive in nature. So name calling, slamming doors and also passive is just as harmful. So they would maybe go in their room for a day or to watch Netflix and ignore the spouse or ignore you. And that's actually very harmful to them.

00:29:22:05 - 00:29:42:24
Courtney
And so we repeat things that we don't repair. We we see that that early conditioning and that's a skill that we acquire or we think we're going to overcompensate it. And that pendulum swings again. So really unhealthy. There's a gray zone there. And so, you know, a lot of times when we don't know how to do something, we avoid it.

00:29:43:05 - 00:30:07:21
Courtney
We just avoid it. We're like, I don't know how to actually fight or have a conversation that's hard. And so I'm not going to do it. But that causes more problems down the road. And so in the book, I really hope to offer some practical tools on how to go hard on what I say the problem is and not the person, you know, and really fighting for our relationships because that's why we're here.

00:30:07:23 - 00:30:28:24
Courtney
Right. And you know, there's that rubber band analogy. Like when you're stretched apart from somebody through conflict, you can snap back together even tighter and even bring closer. And I think that if we can zoom out and look at the long game throughout some of this conflict with people, we can see that that's actually how we grow together in life.

00:30:29:01 - 00:30:49:01
Mike
So true. Yeah, So true. Also, yeah, I was thinking of an analogy. So we avoid it because we're thinking like it's almost like going into battle with, like, no shield, no sword, like, kind of naked, and you're like, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't even know what the heck I'm doing. But if you learn scales, it's going to feel like you're going to be equipped.

00:30:49:03 - 00:31:06:03
Mike
And I don't want to equate like conflict with like you're battling someone or something. But if you can imagine, if you don't feel like you have any of those skills, it's going to be scary. You're just not going to want to do that. But that reframe of how conflict brings people actually closer together is is really a good one.

00:31:06:03 - 00:31:09:12
Mike
And it's important and it's crucial for every relationship.

00:31:09:14 - 00:31:27:06
Courtney
And something to note, too, on this conflict is I've had women tell me, well, you know, I try, but they don't you know, they still shut down or they just still, you know, slam cabinets. And they're you know, they respond in their typical ways. And to which I respond, you know, this is just simply an invitation for people.

00:31:27:06 - 00:31:59:20
Courtney
Again, we cannot control what people do, but it does feel very empowering and freeing to take authority over our own behaviors and words. And and over time, I do think that we can influence people in our close spheres by, you know, holding that line and saying, I'm not going to engage in this type of conflict or sitting down with somebody that's maybe more passive and saying, I know this is uncomfortable for you, but we have to start working through these things and sitting at the table to do that is really important to this relationship for me, instead of you running off every time, I think it's things get hard.

00:31:59:22 - 00:32:12:03
Courtney
And so considering it is an invitation to learn this skill alongside each other can be very empowering and less attacking for some people that maybe feel on guard when when we have to have these hard talks.

00:32:12:05 - 00:32:37:04
Mike
Yeah, for sure. Learning together is it would be great for sure would help both people to feel, you know, one person doesn't have all the, you know, the skills and you know they're going to dominate. So, you know, teaching your partner and learning these things together would be super beneficial. So I love a lot of your book is dedicated towards practical solutions, such as what is a boundary boundary than action safe for is unsafe people.

00:32:37:04 - 00:32:45:18
Mike
And just a lot more on the topic of boundaries. If someone reads the book, what important tools or knowledge will they gain that they may have not been taught before?

00:32:45:18 - 00:33:03:11
Courtney
Well, you just said a couple. What is a boundary? We're living in a world right now where a lot of these terms are spoken so commonly that they're getting watered down. And so I like to keep it very simple, very plain and very practical because like I want to read a book and then actually start putting things, you know, to work in my relationships.

00:33:03:11 - 00:33:23:08
Courtney
I don't want to have to sit there for months at a time and process. So that was my goal with the book, is to keep it very, you know, common wording, nothing like overhead. There is some research in there. There are some other books and different people that I admire that I point you to. But yeah, what is a boundary?

00:33:23:08 - 00:33:45:22
Courtney
What is codependency? How did I get this? What can I do to break free from this? You know, for the mothers, you know, I'm big on, like, rewriting your legacy. I don't think that genetics has the final say. I think that just because your parents were drug addicts or alcoholics. Yeah, you might have that gene. You might have a tendency to, you know, obsess a little more than other people.

00:33:45:22 - 00:34:20:12
Courtney
But I think that we can we can take authority over our behaviors, our thoughts and our words and impact the next generation. And we might not always see the influence and impact, but I think that it is our responsibility within our relationships to really take that into consideration and be responsible with that impact. And so that's really my hope is those practical tips, as you said, safe people, sometimes we can get so lost in dysfunctional, toxic, unhealthy relationships that we don't even know how to spot healthy ones.

00:34:20:14 - 00:34:49:21
Courtney
Right. And so really, you know, saying, okay, that's a red flag and that's not and that's actually a very vulnerable, safe person. Maybe I should get to know them a little bit better. I know for me it was honestly uncomfortable to welcome in safe people and I share about this in the book, even boring at times because I was so used to the chaos and and managing people's problems that I didn't know.

00:34:49:21 - 00:35:07:04
Courtney
Actually, even with my husband, how to date a guy that wasn't dysfunctional. And so that that newness we have to welcome in with with Cheerios. And so yeah that's very surface levels level what the book offers. But I hope that it is practical for people.

00:35:07:06 - 00:35:09:04
Mike
Because it sounds so beneficial.

00:35:09:04 - 00:35:21:09
Mike
So we're coming towards the end of our interview. Again, thanks for being here today. Coordinators Was there like a tool or a strategy or mindset you wanted to share with our audience that can maybe help them in their everyday lives?

00:35:21:13 - 00:35:54:08
Courtney
Yeah, I mean, I think if I could tell myself ten years ago, something before I started this, it would be just a start. Small And we hear that often, but what does that really look like? And for for people that really struggle with people pleasing, you know, setting boundaries, just start small. That one opportunity today that you can limit yourself like really exercising that and we don't like the words control like self-control and discipline because it sounds restricting, but there is freedom in that.

00:35:54:10 - 00:36:22:14
Courtney
Take, for example, like I said, a social timer that sounds like, you know, wow, Why? Because you can't control your time. No, I just I forget and I have to have that timer. And so for me that discipline of not allowing social media or text messages to constantly be notifying me has actually allowed me freedom to write my next book, to be in school, studying, to spend time with my husband and be present with my kids.

00:36:22:16 - 00:36:45:10
Courtney
So start small with something today that you can really exercise that that self-control or that limit around just one know like find one small, know that you can communicate today whether on yourself or somebody in you know in your close circle and build upon that build upon that small habit and see what happens.

00:36:45:12 - 00:37:06:02
Mike
I like that doesn't have to be a complete overhaul. And, you know, 2024 resolution list, you know, the size of the scroll. Well, again, thanks again for being here. I just wanted to ask, what services are you offering these days? Is there anything that you'd like to let our audience know about that you have going on right now?

00:37:06:04 - 00:37:27:04
Courtney
Yeah, I'm actually so I have my Discover your Worth courses on my website and those are getting a little bit of an update. I'm actually providing a printable workbook that I'm going through right now for each of them. The first one is like 50 pages long and it just sources a lot of the stuff that the book doesn't and then, yeah, I am working on my next book, which is kind of exciting.

00:37:27:06 - 00:37:38:18
Courtney
But, but yeah, Loyal to Fall is out now for a couple of months and social media, I'm always kind of hanging talking over there and yeah I'm around.

00:37:38:19 - 00:37:44:21
Mike
There now and Okay And on that note, how can people best get in touch with you? What are some of your social media handles?

00:37:44:21 - 00:37:49:19
Courtney
Yeah. The websites, Courtney, Jay Bergkamp. And then that's my social media. Courtney Joburg.

00:37:49:24 - 00:38:00:04
Mike
So awesome. Well, Claudia, this was really great and informative and I'm sure our audience is going to love it. And just thanks again for being here today and giving us your time.

00:38:00:06 - 00:38:01:20
Courtney
Absolutely. My pleasure.

00:38:01:22 - 00:38:06:18
Mike
Okay. And to our viewers, thanks again for listening and good luck on your healing journey.