00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;07
Nathalia
The person has to want to work on themselves because cheating for many people is a coping strategy,
So that's how they cope with whatever they may be going through.
Yeah. So that's how it is for many people. They, they they feel empty in their lives. They need excitement or they don't know how to repair a relationship.

They just go find something else. So so the thing is, the person has to be willing to look inwards. Work with a professional probably is a good idea. Research. And then. And then find out what kind of coping strategy can I use. That's healthier

00;00;32;16 - 00;01;27;26
Thais
Hello and welcome to the Personal Development School Podcast. I am so excited you are here. I am your co-host, Thais Gibson, along with our new special host, Mike Dizio. This is a podcast that discusses everything related to integrated attachment theory. The New attachment theory, along with the subconscious mind relationships, communication needs boundaries and so much more. Throughout this podcast, you'll see a series of episodes I upload with new information, educational tips, all about how to thrive in relationships and really master your emotional state in your life, along with special guests hosted by Mike Zito to discuss all of these amazing topics and longer form content. Thank you so much for being here and I really hope you enjoy this episode.

00;01;27;26 - 00;01;52;03
Mike
My guest today is a Certified Trauma Informed coach, mindfulness instructor, Breathwork teacher and a relationship and self-esteem coach. Through online coaching programs, she teaches private clients tools to help build self-esteem, heal past trauma, and relieve stress and anxiety. Personal Elements. For listeners and podcast viewers, I'd like to introduce my guest. Natalia Christianson. Hello, Natalia. How are you doing today?

00;01;52;06 - 00;01;54;07
Nathalia
Hello, Mike. I'm good, thank you. How are.

00;01;54;07 - 00;02;06;21
Mike
You? Very good. Thank you for being here. So I just wanted to start out maybe for our audience who might not have seen your work before. It was one. If you could just spend a few moments letting us know who you are, what you do, and maybe a little bit about your backstory.

00;02;06;24 - 00;02;25;20
Nathalia
Sure. Thank you for the introduction, by the way. So to add to that, I do work with people in relationships, and then I also work with people who are trying to get out of and heal from toxic relationships or very emotionally damaging relationships. So that's where the self-esteem part comes in.

00;02;25;27 - 00;02;26;18
Mike
Right.

00;02;26;21 - 00;02;35;16
Nathalia
And when I do that, that through online work with my clients and we connected through Instagram, I believe, where I make a lot of little skits.

00;02;35;19 - 00;02;37;02
Mike
Yeah, I love those settings.

00;02;37;03 - 00;02;48;08
Nathalia
Explain attachment styles, relationship problems, how to handle difficult things, and especially toxic relationships and so forth.

00;02;48;11 - 00;03;08;11
Mike
Yeah, that's amazing. So where did you get the idea to do this? They're really helpful. In one of the classes that I teach communication script practice, I used to show role play scenarios and when I would source videos for those, I couldn't find that many out there. But then when I saw years and I'm like, Wow, this really shows like a good example of how to sort of communicate back and forth.

00;03;08;11 - 00;03;11;19
Mike
So just curious like how you got the idea.

00;03;11;21 - 00;03;32;17
Nathalia
Well, I use Instagram to love myself just for pleasure and for out of interest. And I started seeing a lot of or a few content creators who were doing this, for example, the holistic psychologist. If you know how she she doesn't do it that much. But I think she did a couple and I thought, Wow, that's a great idea.

00;03;32;20 - 00;03;51;23
Nathalia
And I had been on Instagram for a long time with my coaching and I did have clients and my business was fine, but I didn't have that big of a reach on Instagram in the same way that I do now. But then when I started doing this type of role play, then suddenly I think it resonated with people.

00;03;51;23 - 00;04;03;22
Nathalia
I think it's a very effective way of learning strategies. Instead of someone a teacher just standing. And I used to make videos where I would just talk to people like, Remember if someone does this, you don't have to blah, blah, blah, you know?

00;04;03;24 - 00;04;04;11
Mike
Yeah.

00;04;04;13 - 00;04;11;03
Nathalia
But somehow it resonates with people more in this way. That's my experience right now.

00;04;11;05 - 00;04;33;23
Mike
I agree. And action is very helpful. I'm glad you did it. That way. So I just wanted to get into maybe your own personal story. I see a lot of people, you know, they get into coaching, healing work from their own sort of adversities and triumphs. What for yourself? Was there a rock bottom moment or something that really pushed you to dig into your own healing and then now you're able to help others?

00;04;33;25 - 00;04;59;10
Nathalia
Yeah, there was a rock bottom. I mean, I have been suffering from anxiety since I was maybe a kid or a teenager, at least. I just didn't know it back then. But it was just getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. And at the, you know, beginning of my twenties, it was really, really bad. And then around my mid-twenties it was peaking and my anxiety was so bad I didn't enjoy anything.

00;04;59;13 - 00;05;27;05
Nathalia
I constantly had rumination, worries I couldn't enjoy life. I was stuck up going out and socializing with friends. It was just not fun anymore. So for me, something drastic had to change, right? And at that time I was all about science. And, you know, I was working at a media agency and everything was very much like that. And I had seen a couple of psychologists and therapists, but nothing had really worked.

00;05;27;06 - 00;05;46;15
Nathalia
But then I started exploring some alternative methods for this anxiety I was having, and it was kind of a breakthrough for me because some of these meditation techniques, they worked. Yeah, that was pretty amazing to me. So so I did hit rock bottom with the anxiety and it was completely the influencing my life on every level. And I just wasn't happy.

00;05;46;17 - 00;05;51;16
Nathalia
Even though looking from the outside, it looked like I had it all. I was working.

00;05;51;16 - 00;05;52;24
Mike
In an.

00;05;52;26 - 00;06;01;17
Nathalia
Agency. I had a boyfriend, I had a great apartment in Copenhagen. I had, you know, like it looked great, but it didn't feel great. So it doesn't then it doesn't matter, you know?

00;06;01;18 - 00;06;18;18
Mike
Yeah, not at all. And, you know, not a confusing for people because they have all the checkmarks and it's like, I should be happy, but I'm not. I should feel good, but I don't. And then it gets confusing and it's like, hey, it was taught to me. If I do all these things, I'm going to be happy and feel good.

00;06;18;20 - 00;06;32;13
Mike
And then you do all these things that you don't feel happy and feel good. And then it's very confusing. It's like, my gosh, what do I do now? So it sounds like, you know, you had to search and do your own searching to find the answers that work for you. And that's wonderful.

00;06;32;15 - 00;06;52;10
Nathalia
Thank you. So, yeah, for it. No, no worries. I mean, I feel that that's a story we've heard before, right? I feel like many find their path through something kind of like this. Like they think they hexed life. They did everything that looks good on paper, and somehow it just didn't work. Right? So that's definitely how it was for me.

00;06;52;10 - 00;07;14;05
Nathalia
So I made radical changes and I broke up with the boyfriend. He was a great boyfriend. Like there was no shaming of that boyfriend here. It's nothing, nothing wrong with him. But it's just it was me. I was the problem at that time. So broke up with him. I quit my job with the apartment, moved to Costa Rica, lived in the jungle for a year, and did a total reset.

00;07;14;08 - 00;07;19;27
Nathalia
And then when I came back, somehow things never became the same. So yeah.

00;07;19;29 - 00;07;21;11
Mike
That's the beginning of.

00;07;21;12 - 00;07;22;21
Nathalia
My story with this work.

00;07;22;25 - 00;07;40;19
Mike
I love that. And I always ask people, even though it was probably so much pain, just pain that you wouldn't wish upon anyone. Can you say now that you're so thankful that you went through that period? Because look at where you are now. That didn't happen. Who knows where you where you would be? So would you say you're almost thankful that that you went through that?

00;07;40;20 - 00;08;02;05
Nathalia
100%. Really? And I know it's such a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason. You know, it's it's our darkest times that really do guide us in a new direction. And if we are going in a wrong direction in life, then something has to stop us. I was going in the wrong direction. That wasn't really me. I was trying to live up to everyone's expectations.

00;08;02;05 - 00;08;21;00
Nathalia
I was a major people pleaser and it just it wasn't really me. So something had to stop me, right? So that's what the anxiety was doing, right? Actually trying to help me in its own not so comfortable way. But yeah, it had to scream to get my attention because I was so focused on this path that I was on, you know?

00;08;21;03 - 00;08;42;27
Mike
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's inspiring. Thank you for sharing. So I want to go on to our relationship type stuff and our our audience is very big into attachment theory, and that's what we teach a lot of personal development School I know you've done a lot of your own healing work to become secure attachment. What was your attachment style or dominance style before you know, to work on yourself?

00;08;42;27 - 00;08;48;24
Mike
And what do you say was probably the most hardest or challenging parts of being that attachment style?

00;08;48;26 - 00;08;57;09
Nathalia
I want to say a disclaimer here. I'd I wouldn't say that I am 100% secure at this time, and I'm just going to be honest with you.

00;08;57;14 - 00;09;00;17
Mike
I think I don't think anybody has a hard work out. Yeah, no, I.

00;09;00;17 - 00;09;04;21
Nathalia
Don't think so. My attachment style used to be fearful avoidant.

00;09;04;23 - 00;09;05;18
Mike
Yeah.

00;09;05;21 - 00;09;30;12
Nathalia
Right. And so now I am maybe 70% secure, 30% fearful, avoidant, amazing. But it's still there. You know, we get stronger, but it's just I have so much knowledge at this point and I've done so much work on myself that I do. I can kind of catch myself when these patterns come up and then I know what to do to kind of balance myself out again emotionally and so forth.

00;09;30;12 - 00;09;34;12
Nathalia
But yeah, the disorganized, fearful avoidance.

00;09;34;14 - 00;09;34;28
Mike
For sure.

00;09;34;29 - 00;09;35;07
Nathalia
I.

00;09;35;11 - 00;09;52;27
Mike
Suppose I do remember. Do you remember any one thing that was just really challenging, though? It all happened over and over. Was it? The people playing in cafes tend to fall into people facing our boundaries or not speaking up for your needs. Was there any that was really challenging for you?

00;09;52;29 - 00;10;00;29
Nathalia
I would say all of the above. What you just said, but something that I'm really struggling with still is commitment phobia.

00;10;01;11 - 00;10;01;16
Mike
really?

00;10;01;17 - 00;10;06;21
Nathalia
No, because there was always that push pull. No, I'm kind of handling that and I'm glad I.

00;10;06;21 - 00;10;07;16
Mike
Only said,

00;10;07;18 - 00;10;31;02
Nathalia
We're getting married. And like, it's all good, right? But it's it's, it's not just in the relationship area that I'm experiencing this, these fearful avoidant tendencies. You know, I it was it's been hard for me. You know, I moved from place to place. And even though it's exhausting, I like it as well because I feel safe from that, because I never signed a three year contract anywhere or buy a house or anything like that.

00;10;31;04 - 00;10;49;05
Nathalia
Yeah, I guess that still does give me some anxiety at that time and of commitment. Yeah. So I would say in the relationship, the Department of Relationship Department, I have more or less overcome my fearful avoidance sentences, but within other areas of my life, I'm still struggling with.

00;10;49;05 - 00;11;06;19
Mike
It right, right now. My reaction to that was because you shared that you're you have a fiance that you're engaged of like spirit commitment. I'm like, you're making the most of it. But I hear what you're saying. There's still sort of that fear of being trapped or, you know, totally that that makes a lot of sense. Exactly.

00;11;06;19 - 00;11;14;12
Nathalia
And like I said, there's a lot of secure attachment in me at this point as well that can kind of outweigh the fearful avoidance.

00;11;14;15 - 00;11;42;04
Mike
Really? Yes. Your feelings minus fears, the feelings are more pronounced, whereas avoidant types or whatever can have fears are much more than the feelings. And then it makes them a feeling this is not so. Yeah. So that's for sure. For sure. Wonderful. So in your coaching practice, what would you say are some of the most common issues that people are coming to you for and why do you think this is so such an area of struggle for so many people?

00;11;42;07 - 00;12;15;18
Nathalia
It's interesting because I started off working with self esteem and not so much relationships in the beginning, but then I noticed that the clients who came to me, they had something in common, all of them. They all had a hard time setting boundaries. They were all people pleasing. Many of them had anxious attachment styles and they were struggling with more or less the same things that had come from either messy childhoods or toxic relationships, bad relationships that kind of played out the same dynamics from their childhood again.

00;12;15;23 - 00;12;35;20
Nathalia
Right? So I started to notice, okay, you've all been in unhealthy relationships, so there's something here, right? There's something here. And so I started working with relationships more and more as well. And now I would say that's mainly what I work with. But that was interesting to me that they all had so many things in common, excluding unhealthy relationships.

00;12;35;26 - 00;12;54;21
Mike
Right, Right. Interesting. So we touched before on your role play, Get how you do on your Instagram page, which I love so much. There's one that you did entitled Wanting to Change your Partner in the video. It asks, the partner says, Do you think it's healthy for you to focus on what you want to change about me all the time?

00;12;54;23 - 00;13;11;04
Mike
And when I saw that, I felt myself. I'm like, That's been a theme in so many of my relationships where I felt my partner was always trying to change who I wasn't good enough or where I was. You're always trying to push me to change. And then in your video, the other partner says, I'm just trying to help you become the best version of yourself.

00;13;11;06 - 00;13;29;18
Mike
And I was like, that's really interesting. I understand one of your partner to improve and be happy and really realize their potential, but is it a partner's role to do that or what's a better strategy instead of always pointing out maybe negative things? What's a better strategy to help your partner to realize their best potential.

00;13;29;21 - 00;13;52;01
Nathalia
A better strategy is to support your partner and build them up, and that is by accepting where they are in the current moment. Right? And then encouraging them when they're taking steps towards bettering themselves, if that's what they want to do. But I would say that when you're in a relationship at the core, you have to accept that your partner is where he or she.

00;13;52;01 - 00;13;53;00
Nathalia
They are.

00;13;53;02 - 00;13;53;22
Mike
Right.

00;13;53;24 - 00;14;12;05
Nathalia
At any given moment and it's not your job to change them. And if you don't like it, you know what I mean? It's like you chose this partner. So for better or for worse, you have to accept that this partner will also go through highs and lows in life and have good times, maybe go through depression. We go through it.

00;14;12;05 - 00;14;20;28
Nathalia
All right. So if it's really because there's a difference between wanting the best for your partner and then wanting to change your partner.

00;14;21;05 - 00;14;21;26
Mike
Yeah.

00;14;21;28 - 00;14;38;04
Nathalia
You know what I mean? It's subtle, but there is really a difference. Yeah. Yeah. So? So criticizing and nagging and all that. It has the opposite effect. In reality, your partner will become irritated with you and will probably not do the thing you want them to do.

00;14;38;06 - 00;14;38;19
Mike
Right?

00;14;38;19 - 00;14;41;10
Nathalia
Is no one no one surprise of that, right?

00;14;41;13 - 00;14;55;13
Mike
Yeah, for sure. Also, sometimes if you notice, you're the one who's being very critical of your partner. Is that also a reflection of how you're viewing yourself? Maybe. You're very self-critical all the time, so then you project that sort of onto your partner as well.

00;14;55;15 - 00;15;19;24
Nathalia
Or. Sure. I mean, for sure. And that's why I also so in my business, I also work a lot with the self esteem and self-love, which is a part of it, because the more we accept ourselves, the more we're able to accept our partners. You know, it really comes from within. So someone who has an incredibly critical voice inside their head all day long, they are going to project that onto their partner just what it is.

00;15;19;24 - 00;15;28;20
Nathalia
So it also means that if you who are listening are experiencing your partner being very critical of you, you don't necessarily have to take it that personally.

00;15;28;22 - 00;15;30;28
Mike
Right. You know, that's so important.

00;15;31;01 - 00;15;35;08
Nathalia
Nuances to this that I could go into for sure. But this is the gist of it.

00;15;35;08 - 00;15;53;24
Mike
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. And I totally agree. And like I said, I was always taking it as criticism. But then I did realize that a lot of people I dated, there was a lot of pressure on them in childhood on performing and doing well, and they had to be perfect. So I understand the need for them to reject that as well.

00;15;53;27 - 00;16;06;04
Mike
But then on the flip side, I also understand I had some people who genuinely wanted to help me and point out things and they weren't trying to have a dig at me. So yeah, I love all that that you showed that.

00;16;06;06 - 00;16;22;07
Nathalia
Yeah. And it gets a little bit confused, right? Because we can all also be really quick to jump to the defense when someone suggests something, right? Because we're so used to people criticizing us. So the foundation of a really healthy relationship is knowing that your partner really wants the best for you.

00;16;22;09 - 00;16;23;21
Mike
Exactly. Yeah.

00;16;23;22 - 00;16;37;04
Nathalia
If they're saying something and they're not saying it to criticize you, they're saying it to to just elevate you and support you. But that also has a lot to do with the tone, the words that are used in communication and so forth.

00;16;37;06 - 00;17;00;19
Mike
Totally, 100%. So another skill that you touch on the topic, which is really interesting, is once a cheater, always a cheater. So I think a lot of people subscribe to this phrase, It's 100% belief that this is this is what happens once a cheater, always a cheater. Why did you or why do you challenge this phrase? And in what circumstances would you give a cheater a chance?

00;17;00;19 - 00;17;01;18
Mike
And why?

00;17;01;20 - 00;17;22;29
Nathalia
If we believe this phrase, then we're basically also believing that people cannot grow and evolve and change. And that's what my work is all about and that's what I help people do. So of course, I cannot believe that phrase because I see people evolving and changing all the time, right? It's a very deterministic view of how the human psyche works.

00;17;22;29 - 00;17;47;28
Nathalia
It's like you are like this and you'll never change. It doesn't matter what you do. If you if you cheated once when you were 15, you're always going to cheat it. It just doesn't resonate with me and my life experience. Right? It's also black and white thinking, which is not something I'm a fan of because there's always a lot of nuances and it's important, especially in these types of cases, to to look at the gray areas as well.

00;17;47;28 - 00;18;06;26
Nathalia
And I'm not condoning cheating. I'm not saying that you should stay with a serial cheater and you're in a relationship with someone who constantly is showing you that you can't trust them. But I don't subscribe to this particular saying, and I don't think it's true. And I've seen it again and again and again with my clients as well.

00;18;06;28 - 00;18;24;04
Mike
Yeah, yeah. Seems very unfair. And you know, I wouldn't want to be judged for how I was five years ago or ten years ago. I feel like I'm a totally different person and it's really not fair to have to, you know, shamed or have that almost painted on your chest that you are a cheat. Are you are you did.

00;18;24;04 - 00;18;38;13
Mike
That's right. But if you are grown and put in work and realize why you were doing that, I feel like a person can be just as good as anybody else in a relationship. And shouldn't be that way either. Yeah.

00;18;38;13 - 00;19;00;11
Nathalia
For sure. And I think that's just really the key. The person has to want to work on themselves because cheating for many people is a coping strategy, Right? Right. So that's how they cope with whatever they may be going through. Yeah. So that's how it is for many people. They, they they feel empty in their lives. They need excitement or they don't know how to repair a relationship.

00;19;00;11 - 00;19;05;02
Nathalia
They just go find something else. So so the thing is, the person has to be willing to look inwards.

00;19;05;09 - 00;19;05;27
Mike
Yes.

00;19;06;00 - 00;19;24;06
Nathalia
Work with a professional probably is a good idea. Research. And then. And then find out what kind of coping strategy can I use. That's healthier and that doesn't completely damage my entire life and my relationship and hurt the the person that I love the most in this world.

00;19;24;08 - 00;19;44;26
Mike
Right. Right. I love that it's giving them power that okay, at this point in time, you don't have a better strategy. But there are things out there to help you with what you're feeling and you know why you're having this this coping strategy. Basically, that's that's going to be self-destructive, for sure. Yeah, It's it hurts everyone.

00;19;44;26 - 00;20;07;16
Speaker 1
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00;20;07;16 - 00;20;25;28
Speaker 1
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00;20;25;28 - 00;20;49;26
Speaker 1
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00;20;50;00 - 00;20;57;28
Speaker 1
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00;20;57;28 - 00;21;03;10
Mike
So you teach about how people are in talks of relationships.

00;21;03;13 - 00;21;21;01
Mike
And one of your videos, you're saying, you know how toxic relationships are very addictive and sometimes very, very hard to leave. Can you share with us why you believe relationships that are toxic are so hard to leave? And any advice on what people can do? Maybe to start the process of being like, this is not good for me?

00;21;21;03 - 00;21;50;07
Nathalia
Yeah. So the problem with leaving a toxic relationship is that you will usually feel as if you are more in love with this toxic person than you have ever been before with anyone else. And it's because of the highs and the lows. The highs are very, very high and the lows are very, very low. And there's something called intermittent reinforcement that I'm sure you've heard about, which is if you're with a toxic partner sometime they'll give you the good love when you don't know when.

00;21;50;10 - 00;22;10;14
Nathalia
Right. So it can be on day one, two, three, four, five. They're being incredibly toxic on a day six and a day seven suddenly are getting the good love. So that becomes addictive. It's the same reason why gamblers become addicted to gambling. It's that you never you know, it's there and you know it's going to come at some point.

00;22;10;17 - 00;22;30;12
Nathalia
You you just don't know them. So you're waiting around for the good love. And the thing with toxic relationships is that they usually start with a love bombing phase where everything is just incredible. You're getting all this attention and the toxic person will mirror exactly what you want in a partner and show that to you, even though that may just be a facade.

00;22;30;15 - 00;22;38;18
Nathalia
And then once you're hooked, that good love will just slowly go away. Right. And so and

00;22;38;18 - 00;22;49;17
Nathalia
when we're talking about toxic relationships, I think it's important to state that it's relationships where one or both partners are unwilling or unable to change.

00;22;49;19 - 00;22;50;07
Mike
Right?

00;22;50;09 - 00;22;54;27
Nathalia
Right. Because we can all we all have toxic traits, to be honest with you. We all know.

00;22;55;00 - 00;22;55;26
Mike
That we're in a.

00;22;55;26 - 00;23;11;08
Nathalia
Toxic ship. Does that mean that our information ship is toxic just because your partner is doing some toxic things? But if your partner has some kind of diagnosis and they can't change or they don't want to change, then it does become a toxic relationship because there's no growth.

00;23;11;11 - 00;23;13;16
Mike
There's no growth, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00;23;13;16 - 00;23;33;10
Mike
And yeah, it's interesting and important to say that we all to an extent have some toxic traits. And if you're just going to say that person's toxic and nothing that you do is sort of co-creating the situation, you know, probably not going to grow and not going to get to the bottom of why this always happens right now.

00;23;33;12 - 00;23;55;19
Mike
And I love the casino analogy because, yeah, you take so many losses, you lose so much money, but then when you win and all that losses and bad times, you forget about that. You're just like, This is amazing. This was all worth it. But then you go back for. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Those neurochemicals feel so good, right? Exactly.

00;23;55;21 - 00;23;56;18
Mike
Yeah.

00;23;56;20 - 00;24;12;19
Nathalia
It's so true. And it's interesting. Again, there's a little bit of this black and white thinking on Instagram. I see a lot of reels where it's like, if he does do this, this and this leave him. He doesn't love you. He doesn't like this type of communication. It's just not very nuanced.

00;24;12;24 - 00;24;13;29
Mike
Yeah, I.

00;24;14;02 - 00;24;41;13
Nathalia
And I work with with people who have been in toxic relationships and there is a there is a big difference. You know, it's much more when it's a toxic relationship. There's no empathy. There's much more strategy behind the manipulation and behind the good love, bad love, love, bombing, gaslighting, all of this stuff. It's calculated it in a different way than just a person who has had no education on how to manage emotions.

00;24;41;13 - 00;25;02;16
Mike
Right, right, right. Yeah. That's an important point to distinguish. Yeah. Going to move on to the topic of jealousy. I'm sure everyone's experience jealousy one time or another. And you mentioned how jealousy can help you grow. And I think a lot of people, when they feel jealous, almost feel like a shame, then they're like, like, I hate that I'm feeling this.

00;25;02;16 - 00;25;14;13
Mike
I feel this feels weak, that I'm feeling jealous. So instead of getting upset at ourselves or judging ourselves for this feeling, what perspective can we take to look at jealousy as a growth opportunity?

00;25;14;15 - 00;25;40;21
Nathalia
Well, jealousy is a teacher. So what jealousy teaches us is what do we want that we don't currently have? Right? So let's say you see another woman, she has perfect body, whatever, yadda, yadda, you know, whatever I can be. Maybe you feel you need to work on your body or you need to. I'm not saying anyone needs to have a perfect body here.

00;25;40;21 - 00;25;59;18
Nathalia
Please don't misunderstand me. But you know what I mean. It says something about the way you think you should work on this area of your life or someone who's super successful. And that makes you jealous because you would like to be that successful. So you need to put in the work to get there so it can kind of help you decipher what what do you really want?

00;25;59;20 - 00;26;18;07
Nathalia
What are your goals? If you're confused about what you want in life, then you can look at Who am I jealous? That's right. And so and right now I'm talking about the type of jealousy that is not based in in reality, if your boyfriend goes out and flirts with women in front of you, it's natural to be jealous.

00;26;18;07 - 00;26;23;16
Nathalia
And you can be jealous and you should be jealous. And there's nothing it doesn't say anything about.

00;26;23;18 - 00;26;23;25
Mike
Your.

00;26;23;25 - 00;26;28;28
Nathalia
Goals or desires. I'm talking about the type of jealousy that that not provoked in any way.

00;26;29;04 - 00;26;30;16
Mike
Read.

00;26;30;18 - 00;26;38;10
Nathalia
Someone and think, my God, she's so amazing or He's so amazing. But just here it's feedback.

00;26;38;10 - 00;26;56;11
Mike
Yeah. To show that, hey, this is an area that you actually want to be good at, but you're not putting energy or attention into it. So maybe this is a bit of a tap on the shoulder. Emily You can, you can do that. You just got to put in the work. Yeah. So on your YouTube channel, you have a YouTube channel as well and you have a video and title.

00;26;56;12 - 00;27;12;13
Mike
Too much empathy can hurt you in others. So in my eyes, empathy is usually seen as a really great trait to have. And if you're very proud, if you think you're an empathetic person. But when does empathy cross into the territory where it could start to hurt yourself and others?

00;27;12;20 - 00;27;36;13
Nathalia
The problem with empathy in and the so-called empaths, which I would consider myself one of those as well. But the problem is that if you feel too much of other people's emotions and other people's pain, if it weighs too heavy on you, you are going to burn out, You are going to go down with stress, you're going to be so exhausted, you have nothing left, right.

00;27;36;13 - 00;27;36;19
Nathalia
So

00;27;36;19 - 00;28;02;09
Nathalia
what often happens with empaths and I've gone through this myself, so there's absolutely no judgment. I'm still working on it as well myself, is that you have to take a certain amount of distance from people because it's just too overwhelming and it's too exhausting. If you haven't learned how to kind of separate yourself a little bit from other people and not take on all of their emotions and cry when they cry and feel too much.

00;28;02;12 - 00;28;02;19
Mike
Right.

00;28;02;20 - 00;28;29;09
Nathalia
And and what what I mean when I say like it can hurt you and others, is that because of that distance you have to take, you might not be able to be there for people in the same way that someone who has less empathy would be able to. Right. So someone who has less empathy has more energy because they're not so exhausted after hanging out with someone who is in distress for 3 hours because they didn't take on all of that pain.

00;28;29;09 - 00;28;31;02
Nathalia
They just want a little bit of that.

00;28;31;04 - 00;28;31;14
Mike
Right.

00;28;31;15 - 00;28;48;13
Nathalia
So they can actually be there for someone else that can drive them to the hospital. They can do all of those things. If you've started crying right now and then I start crying because you're crying, it's not helpful. You know what I mean? It's like I might be burnt, I might have might have a lot of empathy, but it doesn't help you that now I'm crying.

00;28;48;17 - 00;29;07;02
Mike
Yeah, totally. That makes so much sense because I know in the past or sometimes, you know, somebody is going through a terrible period in their life and I want to be there for them. But if I'm sitting with them and they're just really a lot of emotion and just a lot of pain, and then I'm starting to feel it and it's very uncomfortable.

00;29;07;04 - 00;29;31;18
Mike
I just want to get out of there. In my mind. I'm like, my gosh, when is this going to end? And then sometimes I won't talk to them for a few days. I'm like, I need like a few days to rebalance. Whereas I hear what you're saying is like, Well, if I at that time knew sort of my boundaries and didn't take on so much, sitting with that person for a couple of hours wouldn't pletely throw me off and I wouldn't have the need to have ignored them for days and days.

00;29;31;20 - 00;29;51;04
Nathalia
Exactly. So that's why empaths, ironically, can end up becoming kind of cold or they can seem cold, or they don't want to take on too much. They want to stay home. They don't want to engage too much in community because it's yeah, so so what empaths they have to learn how to kind of put up a bit of a wall.

00;29;51;07 - 00;29;53;09
Nathalia
Yeah. And turn down the empathy.

00;29;53;11 - 00;30;13;14
Mike
Right. Right. Yeah. No I understand. Yeah. People might view them as that, but they're just protecting their own energy. They don't know how to sort of dial it down. It's really interesting. So you have another video entitled How to Build Your Self Esteem, and you pose a question which I thought was super interesting because of course I asked it to myself too.

00;30;13;16 - 00;30;36;28
Mike
If you never change yourself from exactly who you are in this moment, would you still love yourself? And I was like, Wow, that's amazing, because a lot of people, you know, they're always wanting to work on themselves and grow and evolve and then they're, I'm not where I want to be right now, but let's just say argument's sake, if nothing change right now, would you still love yourself?

00;30;37;00 - 00;31;07;28
Mike
And that's such a good question because you were explaining self-esteem or healthy self-esteem can't be changed. It doesn't matter if you're succeeding, if you're failing, if you're lost, your job, if you just got an award. True healthy self-esteem stays the same regardless what's happening outside of you. So I was wondering in a nutshell, if you can share if somebody is struggling with low self esteem, what's something they can do to start building it and how can they have this healthy self-esteem regardless of what's happening around them?

00;31;08;00 - 00;31;35;22
Nathalia
Yeah, they actually have to learn how to accept their flaws without wanting to change them Doesn't mean that you can't change some things and get better at something or that you shouldn't aim for that. That's fine, but if it comes from self-hate, then it's not good. And it doesn't. It won't help your self-esteem because if you attached your self esteem to something that you do or something you get better at or you lose weight or something like that, it's too fragile.

00;31;35;25 - 00;31;56;18
Nathalia
You know, so many things can happen in this life and if it's attached to a career or something like that, then, then it's very, very fragile and you can lose it in an instant and it will give you an anxiety, right? So it's a lot about accepting the good and the bad about who you are. And it's easy to have self esteem when things are going great.

00;31;56;18 - 00;32;15;29
Nathalia
But what about when you gain weight, when it's not going great, when you got, you know, fired when your boyfriend left you? What about that, Ben? You know, or when you've behaved badly, when you've done bad things? We all do bad things to a certain extent at some point in our lives, you know, none of us are perfect.

00;32;16;02 - 00;32;19;07
Nathalia
And being able to accept that that's a part of who you.

00;32;19;07 - 00;32;20;09
Mike
Are.

00;32;20;12 - 00;32;48;15
Nathalia
Is the biggest key, I would say, because that's the hardest thing to do. So for I can give you an example. So I'm really bad at sports myself. I was always picked last back in school. I'm so clumsy with a football and it's just not my thing right? And I used to be really insecure about it. And if someone would come to me and comment on my abilities or I would say that I was running in a funny way or something, it would completely destroy me.

00;32;48;17 - 00;33;09;16
Nathalia
Right? But now I've really I've accepted that that's not I have many strengths, but that's not my my biggest strength. And that's okay. So if someone come to me and comes to me now and makes fun of the way I run, or that I couldn't catch the ball or whatever, it really doesn't bother me. I'll just laugh saying, my God, I know that looked so funny, right?

00;33;09;17 - 00;33;21;10
Nathalia
As a bit you were all laughing, you know, because it doesn't. I'm really okay with it. Yeah. So we becoming okay with who you are, Especially that the loss or the the bad, bad things?

00;33;21;11 - 00;33;22;04
Mike
Yeah.

00;33;22;06 - 00;33;23;17
Nathalia
That's where it starts.

00;33;23;19 - 00;33;42;28
Mike
I love that. And I love when you have that shift to the things that used to have changed me so much. When people would joke around with me about or point out now I have such a laugh about it, I think it's hilarious that, you know, that I sucked in this area or I can't do that. We're not meant to be good at every single segment.

00;33;42;28 - 00;34;02;12
Mike
That's just not realistic. And yet focusing on things that you are good at that feel like that's great. And I thought in the video to talk about the differentiation and I thought it was important for our audience to know what's the major difference between confidence and self esteem? How do you separate sort of those two terms?

00;34;02;15 - 00;34;22;14
Nathalia
I don't remember exactly what I said in the video, but I will say what I would say now, which is that confidence is usually attached to something. You're confident in a certain area because you're good at it, you're good at speaking in front of people, so you're confident doing that. You are a fast runner. So are you confident on the football field?

00;34;22;16 - 00;34;42;25
Nathalia
Self esteem has nothing to do with with outside validation. It's about you and no, it's about your relationship with yourself. So confidence is it's okay to have confidence. There's nothing bad about it having confidence in the areas that are that you have an easy time with that that are fun for you, that are great for you or at work.

00;34;42;28 - 00;34;47;12
Nathalia
But we don't want to only have confidence and not have the self-esteem part.

00;34;47;14 - 00;34;48;10
Mike
Totally.

00;34;48;12 - 00;34;55;15
Nathalia
That makes sense. And so confidence can also be broken. You know, it's like it's less solid than self esteem.

00;34;55;21 - 00;35;20;00
Mike
Right? Right. Yes. That's exactly what you're touching on in the video and how confidence can be sort of it's more of an outward projection. You could be on set. You're always on stage. You can be confident on stage and look, wow, this is a wonderful speaker. But then once you go off stage and you're maybe not feeling good about different areas of your life and your self-esteem is low, anybody watching you on the stage would be like, Wow, that's a confident person.

00;35;20;00 - 00;35;35;08
Mike
But then when you go back to your self, that self esteem, if it's not in a good place, then it doesn't matter how good your confident speaker and it probably might give you a good income or whatnot, but really it's the self piece that needs to always be focused on more.

00;35;35;10 - 00;35;43;16
Nathalia
Yeah, and confidence doesn't really give you that much happiness, but self esteem does, right?

00;35;43;16 - 00;35;44;09
Mike
Right. You know.

00;35;44;10 - 00;35;53;06
Nathalia
Confidence might give you success in certain areas, but it doesn't really give you happiness. It doesn't give you that, you know, peace with your self. But self esteem does, right?

00;35;53;11 - 00;36;16;12
Mike
Right, exactly. It might get you admiration and like, wow, I want to be like that. But if you don't align yourself, then you don't think you're awesome all the time. Then it doesn't matter how many people are telling you all, you're amazing, you're amazing. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. So you talk about boundaries. Boundaries, obviously so important and specifically setting boundaries is a people pleaser.

00;36;16;14 - 00;36;41;04
Mike
And you said, you know, a people pleaser, someone who is not used to setting boundaries. You might immediately if you do go to set of boundaries, you might immediately doubt yourself and wonder if you're being unreasonable or selfish. You get really stressed out. So but then you want to explain. It's normal to second guess yourself when you're new at this, because the guilt you feel immediately after the boundary is not to be trusted.

00;36;41;07 - 00;37;03;24
Mike
So I've definitely had this before where I've had that set of boundary, but then right away like, my gosh, was that too much or should I have done that? And second guess it was the right thing to do. So I was wondering for someone who is new at setting boundaries, at what point is that feel and second voice kind of stop and why should we not trust this voice at all?

00;37;03;27 - 00;37;29;26
Nathalia
Yeah, well, we shouldn't trust it because if you are a people pleaser, then you are programed to only be satisfied and happy if everyone around you is pleased. And when you set a boundary, the other person might not be pleased, the other person might be annoyed, you know? And so something that often comes up is that a recovering people pleaser will feel incredibly selfish, right?

00;37;29;29 - 00;37;38;29
Nathalia
But that doesn't mean that they are selfish. They're just programed to think that because they're used to doing everything for everyone else and never anything for themselves.

00;37;39;01 - 00;37;39;19
Mike
Right?

00;37;39;21 - 00;38;00;21
Nathalia
Right. So it's also that whole code codependency pattern, Right? And so that's why it's very predictable. Actually. If you are a people pleaser, you are going to feel bad for setting a boundary you are going to feel selfish and you can't trust that right. And that's that's a little disorienting in the beginning. Of course you don't want it.

00;38;00;21 - 00;38;08;04
Nathalia
I had a client and she said to me, she was like, Yeah, but if I don't if I stop trusting that, what if I turn into this kind of, like, completely narcissistic and.

00;38;08;04 - 00;38;09;02
Mike
Just, yeah.

00;38;09;06 - 00;38;31;26
Nathalia
And I just said, Beverly friends probably. I mean, so of course there has to be a balance. But the thing is, if you've lived, you're entire life pleasing people, chances are what you need to practice is the opposite, but you need to practice exposing yourself, right? And then you'll find the balance in the middle. You know, it's at some point, but you need to practice it, right?

00;38;31;28 - 00;38;38;19
Nathalia
And so that's why you can't trust those that immediate guilt and second guessing.

00;38;38;22 - 00;38;59;17
Mike
Right. Right. Well, that's helpful. Thank you. So we touched before on self-love. And, you know, a lot of people have these different ideas of what self-love is and what self-love activities they do for Natalia. What's your sort of definition of self-love and what are some things that you do or that people can be doing to become more self loving?

00;38;59;19 - 00;39;33;12
Nathalia
Yeah, the first thing is that I always work on my self-acceptance and I kind of I, I really appreciate spending time alone. I always have. And when I do spend time alone, I spoil myself. You know, I do nice things for myself. I cook food that I like or order in order to do something that's I try to try to treat myself as someone I love, you know, And it's a good question to ask yourself, as always, what would someone who loved themselves do in this situation?

00;39;33;15 - 00;39;34;25
Mike
Yeah, right.

00;39;34;28 - 00;40;02;21
Nathalia
But that can kind of lead in the right direction. But I'm getting better and better at it. It's a journey for sure, right? Because you can catch yourself not loving yourself or having negative thoughts and so forth. But I try to not judge myself, especially when I'm feeling unmotivated when I haven't performed during a day, when I've just been lazy, which, believe me, happens very often that I can just feel it, not feeling it or feeling lazy or not.

00;40;02;24 - 00;40;15;21
Nathalia
Yeah, yeah. Being that productive. And I used to be really hard on myself, but I actually found out that I don't get less results from having those lazy days. It's actually quite the opposite. It's like I need them.

00;40;15;23 - 00;40;17;04
Mike
Yeah.

00;40;17;06 - 00;40;27;25
Nathalia
So I just try not to judge myself because the most self-hating thing is to judge yourself constantly and talk negatively to yourself and say, You're honest.

00;40;27;27 - 00;40;48;23
Mike
That's not right. Yeah, it's those times where we are not feeling it or not really motivated or not doing what we should be doing. Those that need to be the most self-loathing and take it as a sign is like, Hey, it just shows we need to have a bit of a relaxed day and not so much. Yeah, so I love one.

00;40;48;26 - 00;41;03;12
Mike
Okay, so we're coming towards the end of our podcast. Couple more questions and thank you again for your time today. Before we leave, is there a tool or a strategy or a mindset that you want to share with our audience that might help them in their everyday life?

00;41;03;15 - 00;41;24;03
Nathalia
I think I will say what I said just a minute ago, which is self-acceptance is the key to your life. I mean, it's the key to your relationship. It's the key to your success. It's the key to just your relationship with your self. If you can learn to accept yourself, you have come.

00;41;24;05 - 00;41;24;16
Mike
So.

00;41;24;16 - 00;41;33;10
Nathalia
Far. So, so, so, so, so far. So if you're confused with what area to work on first, start with self-acceptance.

00;41;33;13 - 00;41;34;15
Mike
Right?

00;41;34;17 - 00;41;45;25
Nathalia
And then go from there. Because then you know that all the improvements you are trying to make in your life is coming from a really loving cheerleader type place instead of from a self-hating place.

00;41;45;28 - 00;42;07;14
Mike
Right now because of that, yeah, obviously you're going to get better results if you have if you're your own best cheerleader instead of somebody you know, not talking about yourself. I love that advice. Yeah. So we cover a lot today on the podcast and it's been great. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience that maybe we didn't cover them?

00;42;07;24 - 00;42;09;03
Nathalia
I mean, there's so much.

00;42;09;03 - 00;42;09;16
Mike
I know.

00;42;09;23 - 00;42;22;17
Nathalia
It's such a great relationship and self esteem, such a big, big topics, right? So there's millions of things, but I think we covered a good, good deal of important important lessons and yeah.

00;42;22;23 - 00;42;23;27
Mike
Definitely for sure.

00;42;23;28 - 00;42;49;12
Nathalia
Just also, nobody's got it totally figured out that the coaching and the teachers and the therapists, we're all just trying our best here, right? So so don't put other people on pedestals and think that, my God, she's the relationship coach. She probably has the perfect relationship and an amazing relationship with herself all the time. It's not like that, but I see many people feeling bad comparing themselves and then feeling bad about themselves.

00;42;49;17 - 00;42;50;09
Mike
Yeah.

00;42;50;11 - 00;42;56;09
Nathalia
That's not the reality for anyone. So you are right on track if you're listening right now.

00;42;56;11 - 00;43;19;04
Mike
Yeah, I worry. Yeah, I love that. And you know, many times during the interview you said even as well, you're not projecting yourself as this perfect 100% healed person. You know, you also there's areas that you're still working out in those areas that you still need to focus on. So I love that you could easily fall into the trap of seeing people who are in this field and be like, Wow, they have it all figured out.

00;43;19;07 - 00;43;30;28
Mike
But really nobody's 100% figure it out. They might have got really good at what they're doing, but that's probably something that they need to work on and that's fine, that's for sure.

00;43;30;28 - 00;43;54;13
Nathalia
And there's a huge difference between having all the knowledge and being able to help other people with some realizations and then being able to fully heal and apply all of the knowledge on yourself to 100%. You know what I mean? Having a lot of this knowledge can really help someone like me. There are still others, but I might have some wounds that I need someone to help me figure out.

00;43;54;13 - 00;43;56;01
Nathalia
And that might take some time.

00;43;56;03 - 00;44;07;18
Mike
Exactly. Yeah, for sure. So what are you offering these days? We talked about your private coaching. Just want to know what you're offering these days and how people can maybe get in touch with you.

00;44;07;20 - 00;44;23;24
Nathalia
These days. I offer one on one sessions with clients, and I have a specific self esteem program, self esteem program, a ten week program that a lot of my clients, they start with that and then they might continue afterwards, but they'll start with that program.

00;44;23;27 - 00;44;24;06
Mike
On their.

00;44;24;06 - 00;44;37;29
Nathalia
Phone, which can help you get over as pain. If you've been in difficult relationships or you're having a hard time healing from past relationships, and then it really builds your self esteem from from the inside and out.

00;44;38;01 - 00;44;38;05
Mike
In.

00;44;38;08 - 00;44;48;18
Nathalia
Some of the ways that we've been speaking about today. And then other than the program, I also just do one on one sessions with with with couples and with.

00;44;48;18 - 00;44;49;08
Mike
The.

00;44;49;11 - 00;44;51;16
Nathalia
With with clients. Yeah, one on one.

00;44;51;16 - 00;44;52;24
Mike
Clients and.

00;44;52;28 - 00;45;17;10
Nathalia
You can be on my you asked how to reach out to me so you can find me on my website. I have a forum where you can apply for a 15 minute free call or we can just meet and have a chat and you can also message me on Instagram, but I definitely recommend reaching out through the website on the form because on Instagram I get a lot of DMS and I always get all of them.

00;45;17;13 - 00;45;33;16
Nathalia
You know, maybe once in a while I'll go through all of them. But so if you, if you want to reach me then through the website. Natalia Christensen dot com And it's the same my Instagram and my Tik tok and my, my YouTube channel, they're all just Natalia Christensen.

00;45;33;18 - 00;45;36;19
Mike
You're the only Natalia Christensen on the planet.

00;45;36;22 - 00;45;43;15
Nathalia
It seems like, yeah, but who knows? Yeah, if you're out there.

00;45;43;18 - 00;45;44;13
Mike
And.

00;45;44;15 - 00;45;45;14
Nathalia
You go.

00;45;45;17 - 00;45;57;10
Mike
To call. Yeah, well, thank you so much for your time. I learned a lot, and I'm sure our audience will really enjoy this one. And yeah, just thanks again for being here. Really appreciate it.

00;45;57;13 - 00;45;59;00
Nathalia
My pleasure. It was fun.

00;45;59;02 - 00;46;05;06
Mike
Okay. And thanks for our listeners and watchers, as always, best of luck on your healing journey and we'll see you next time.