Patrick Teahan May 29_1
[00:00:00] I think as childhood trauma survivors being seen is not safe for the person. I think as a human being, just putting yourself out there causes healthy anxiety. But I think for like everything else with childhood trauma, it gets kind of amped up a bit. 
[00:00:13] Hello and welcome to the Personal Development School podcast.

[00:00:17] I am so excited you're here. Here I am your co-host, Thais Gibson, along with our new special host, Mike Dio. This is a podcast that discusses everything related to integrated attachment theory, the new attachment theory, along with the subconscious mind, relationships, communication, needs, boundaries, and so much more.

[00:00:39] Throughout this podcast, you'll see a series of episodes I upload with new information, educational tips, all about how to thrive in relationships and really master your emotional state and your life, along with special guests hosted by Mike Desi to discuss all of these amazing topics and some longer form content.
[00:00:55] Thank you so much for being here, and I really hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:01:05] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Personal Development School podcast. I'm your host, Mike DiZio, and we have Thais Gibson today with us joining for co-hosting duties. Hi, Ty. How you doing?

[00:01:17] I'm good. I'm so excited about our guests here today 

[00:01:20] and I'm very excited today. So we have obviously Patrick Teahan here.

[00:01:24] Before we dive into the podcast, I'd like to give a little background on Patrick. So, Patrick's a licensed independent clinical social worker and a fellow childhood trauma survivor at 19, he stumbled into therapy as a somewhat feral childhood trauma survivor, and spent five years with a gifted and profoundly effective trauma therapist and fellow L I C S W, Amanda Curtin.

[00:01:46] Amanda developed the relationship recovery process group model of childhood trauma that Patrick now practices does research on trains and talks about on his amazing YouTube channel. YouTube says that he's hit 15 million views since starting in 2018. And actually, Patrick, I checked this morning and you're closer to 27 million.

[00:02:06] But who's, who's counting Right? When Patrick's not doing videos on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram, he carries a small caseload for groups, individuals, and conducts trainings for other therapists, runs an online remote healing community. I believe Patrick should get an award for his role play videos on YouTube, and he's won heck of a drummer.

[00:02:25] PS podcast listeners, I'd like to introduce Patrick Han. Bye Patrick, so much for today. I'm great. Thank you so much for, for having me. I've never been introed. Oh, really? Wow. That's great. Appreciate it. Okay. And Patrick, I have to say this, I wore the plaid shirt today as an homage because I know in a lot of your videos you wear a plaid shirt, so I thought this was appropriate.

[00:02:48] We should have emailed, we could have been matchy matchy, you know, we could, we could've been match matchy. Okay. This is the Canadian plaid version. Yes. So, I dunno if you have a red plaid shirt. Okay. So diving right in Patrick, like for some of our listeners who might not know your backstory mm-hmm.

[00:03:02] Would you be able to tell us briefly about your background and if you wanna touch on like, early family life, where you lived, your education things like, things like that. 

[00:03:11] Yeah. I am the son of two Irish immigrants that met at a dance.
[00:03:15] If you wanna start way, way back in the way back they met at a, at an Irish dance in 1970 right around the Boston area cuz a lot of Irish were kind of, a lot of, you know, it's just kind of known as sort of an Irish town or not, not unlike Chicago. And they, you know, just sort of that's where that kind of mess unfolded.

[00:03:35] I'm, I'm one of three children that their, that family or my family growing up consisted of alcoholism and cluster b personality stuff going on with them. They really struggled with mental health, but like from, from the outside, like with cluster B, a lot of people don't pick up on that. You don't know that your neighbor has that going on.
[00:03:58] Alcoholism, domestic violence, just a lot of codependency and a power
 struggle in their marriage. and then that's where it kind of started from there. And then, you know, as I, in my teenage years, I got into music, I got into drugs and alcohol. I think traumatized kids, we gotta find something that keeps us going through the mess of it.

[00:04:21] Some kids do academics, some kids do drugs, some kids find sex, some kids find shutting down or whatever. And I found kind of like rock and roll and drugs. And then, you know, just to kind of fast forward where I found myself The family kind of imploded around. When I was around 19, what was, we had lost two family members and the alcoholism had escalated through when my dad passed away when I was 18, which is back in 95.

[00:04:52] And then it was just kind of like, that's like the pinnacle of the other parents really not being able to handle much and everything just kind of came crashing and burning. So it was a crisis. But those crises for a lot of child trauma survivors, they're like excruciatingly hard. But those are the moments that I find that people start to pivot, like in a bad relationship when you just realize one day after four years of like constant fights and mucking around that you just kind of wake up one day and that was kind of what it was like.

[00:05:24] And then a year later, I remember really poignantly that my romantic relationships with women, they would last about five or six weeks cuz I was really anxiously attached. Really traumatized, really feral. I just noticed this pattern like five to six weeks was it? And I was in one of those and it was kind of a miraculous kind of experience cuz she was just really pointing out to me trauma.

[00:05:49] She wasn't a therapist, but she was just pointing out trauma symptoms to me in a way. When someone just kind of names things that, you know, you've, you've known about but now you have a name for them in some way or little, little clues. And then I remember this, I was dating her and then, you know, then around the serendipity of it all, I was dating her, having those realizations.

[00:06:12] And then I just remember I was a waiter in Boston and I kind of opened up to this other fellow waiter who was older. I was always. I was always like the scrappy younger brother with older people. I was never comfortable with people my own age, which is another symptom I think like the parentified child, that kind of a thing.

[00:06:29] And he just gave me Amanda's number. So I'm sitting at a restaurant and I would just, I just said to, you know, he just kind of said, you look a little glu. And I was, I just kind of like, I feel like something's wrong with me. It was just one of those moments and he was like, oh, you know, just wrote down her number.

[00:06:45] And then I just went over to the, literally a payphone, that's how old I am, a payphone that the waiters would use at this fish restaurant in Boston. And then that's where it all started. And you know, started sessions with Amanda. I got into a group, she got me to go to college, finished that work, got sober and then that started the whole trajectory of eventually getting a master's in counseling and.

[00:07:09] And at what point did you realize this is the career path I wanna take? Was there a tipping point where it was so profoundly impactful for you? Great question. I think I got to therapy so young. There's almost like a beauty in the simplicity of being wide-eyed looking at somebody, you know what I mean?

[00:07:25] Cuz it's like, I would just remember, I could still see her sitting in this chair in our first individual session and behind her was a degree from Boston University. And I, I was just like, this is what you do. You just kind of, you know what I mean? You sit and help people And it was like that simplicity or ram most innocence of it.

[00:07:43] I was like, that's a cool gig. I wanna do that. You know, it was, and she just turned out to be amazing. But I just remember specifically, I really didn't have a career. I was just waiting tables. I had never planned on getting higher education or anything like that, but I was just looking at her wide-eyed going like, what an amazing purpose to have, you know.

[00:08:03] That's really powerful. And I think too, when you're in that state of mind, you're always just surviving. Like it's sort of one day after another, just existing. So really be coming outta that traumatic experience. And healing probably also opened you to, to the sort of next steps in your path. Yeah. And just wanted to comment, Patrick, how you mentioned it was so like fortuitous or whatever you want to call it, how that person saw you and they literally, like Patrick, you, you look so glum, like what's wrong?

[00:08:28] Yeah. And if that person didn't say that and sort of pass along the information to you, like who knows? I'm sure you might have would've found relief in other ways, but this was definitely meant to happen. yeah, it was a perfect situation. That restaurant that I worked with, I worked with some really great fellow survivors and lost souls.

[00:08:46] But what was interesting about it is we have this whole culture right now of holistic. Work and all kinds of great stuff going on. But back then, this was Cambridge in the mid nineties. People were going on retreats, they were doing breath work, they were doing all kinds of stuff. So the gentleman who noticed he was in therapy and he was super into breath work.

[00:09:07] So it's just like what I, what I really love about that is I had come from the suburbs. Where it was just like people, people's lives revolved around like a sub shop, you know what I mean? Or they would go to work in Boston and come back and, you know what I mean? There's none of that. People would go to a church and that was the way that they would take care of their emotions.

[00:09:26] Right? So I was just kind of, you know, catapulted into this kind of crunchy Cambridge existence that was really good for me, you know? Wow. And just hearing you say breath work in the nineties, almost like blew my head off. Because to me, I thought breath work was sort of really this new thing in the past three, four or five years.

[00:09:42] But if you knew about breath work in the nineties, that's pretty special people. Yeah, I think it's just this, I think the internet has made us go like, whoa, you know, like for sure you can do reiki and that, like you could do all this stuff, but we were doing it then it was just like such a small little niche, you know what I mean?

[00:10:00] Yeah. There was lots, I mean, I, I also saw a shaman in the middle of my own childhood trauma work that changed my life in the middle. So it was all just, Amazing stuff going on and just didn't have Instagram. Fair enough. And were there multiple sort of sources, so, so you mentioned the woman you worked with, the therapist, and then a shaman.

[00:10:22] And were there other resources or people you leaned on or things that you read about that were really impactful? Mm-hmm. Amanda was just super into this stuff. She's a social worker and a therapist, but she's very, very holistic. So her husband is this id, he's my Reiki mentor. He would start to do Reiki retreats and we would be using Reiki from an inner child perspective.

[00:10:42] So it was a combination of their husband and wife practice. And then she would introduce us to people who were doing meditative work. And she's the one that brought in sort of the shaman connection, cuz she just really believed in that kind of stuff. So it was just like a, it was just amazing.

[00:11:00] That's really powerful and, and I'm really into a lot of those things too. The, the meditation and just sort of the spiritual twist on things I think is so important for mm-hmm. For a healing journey. Mm-hmm. Right. Absolutely. I find that it can't be all of that. Like we could do a whole, another whole session about spiritual bypass because you can, I can see people getting caught up on it and not doing their family work.

[00:11:21] Yes. But I don't wanna poo poo on it either because it was also, you know, it's not one or the other. And I think it's like, like you said, that holistic point of view where if you just hone in on the spiritual side, absolutely. Inherently there's spiritual bypassing and I think sometimes to the point where like you're not even in your body.

[00:11:35] Right? Like you can sort of dissociate a little bit. Yeah, sure. Connect versus when you have that sort of holistic point of view, including the family work, it's so powerful. And one thing that I noticed comes up a lot in, in the work I've been doing with people historically is that a lot of times from an attachment trauma space, the work that you don't sort out from your parents, your old wounds, your pain points, old patterns, anyone you haven't forgiven that oftentimes filling into your romantic relationships and your adult life.

[00:12:05] So I think that there's many sort of layers to that. Absolutely. Right, It's like we have to finish business with our authority issues before we just submit our lives to a guru. Absolutely. Like that's an example where we kind of see in that way and then we get triggered by the guru so much or the, or the guru is, you know, crazy or whatever and it's not, you know what I mean?

[00:12:24] But that's just one example that comes to mind, you know, and I always believe that when people don't properly individuate, so they, they put somebody on a pedestal and they say, okay, look, this person has all the answers they have. Then that naturally, inherently comes with all these expectations or expectations we have towards anybody, the, the further the fall from grace.

[00:12:42] Right? Right. So I find it sort of follows these cycles of like infatuation and then resentment until somebody realizes I have to individuate. And while I can take people's opinions and appreciate that and learn from that, I have to properly consider myself in the process or else it can lead to a whole bunch of other forms of chaos where that person projects onto the guru instead.

[00:13:03] Well said. And I think the healthy guru doesn't want that from you. Absolutely. Like they don't want that kind of power or praise, you know? And the relationships, why they're doing what they're doing comes from a place of contribution rather than significance or, you know, the relationship to it is very different.

[00:13:19] So I I love that. I think that's fantastic. So, so what prompted you to start your YouTube channel? What was sort of the I was just kind of like, I had done some videos to promote, like my groups and they were just like little things that I would put on my website so that people could see who I was or whatever.

[00:13:36] And then I had this idea about I wanted to, you know, Amanda would really kind of, her work was really rooted in how society would view trauma only through something like the ACE study. Like you had to, you had to have been in like dire physical or sexual abuse, really, like, really horrific kind of situations to qualify for childhood trauma.

[00:14:01] When most of this stuff that affects our attachment or our triggers or reactions or our sense of self or all of it is just the day-to-day stuff. Like just having you're a child and neglect and you have two workaholic parents that just send you to other people for attachment or care. And is that horrific?

[00:14:20] It's, it's horrific enough. So I wanted to do a video to kind of a bit to cut through some of that stuff. And I was researching and I found the ACE study and I was going over the ACE study. And the ACE study has a lot of just those hardcore qualifiers, but not the other stuff. So the video was just looking at what Amanda would call the difference between a blatantly abusive family and a tricky family.

[00:14:43] The blatantly abusive family is very loud, physical abuse, chaos, all kinds of horrific stuff that even your friend in school would be like. Yeah, I don't want to go to your house and I don't think I can deal with your dad or something like that. It's just like, you know. But the tricky family was a lot like, kind of, kind of like my family.

[00:15:03] My family was a combination of both. So what I wanted to do is I wanted to do a project that kind of dispelled the myth. And I created it was, it was inspired by John Bradshaw, but I created a questionnaire and it took me a month to do this video. It was a whole kind of project and I was just, it was animated and I was learning the animation.

[00:15:20] As I was go, I was just flying blind. I did a voiceover. That wasn't really that good cuz I, but I didn't know what I was doing, but it all worked out Okay. And then at the end of it, after a year, I had like a thousand views and I was like, oh, cool. You know, people, enough people kind of saw it, but then it got shared somewhere and then it just became its own thing.

[00:15:38] So it was almost, I, I just wanted to do a project. I, I didn't sit down and say I want to become this YouTube sort of thing. I was just kind of, you know, wanted to kind of. bring a bit of Amanda's thoughts or work into the world, and then it just became something else. So it got shared. And then I'm sitting there just kind of once in a while, I would check in on the views and the numbers, and then one day it went from a thousand views to like 10,000 views in a week.

[00:16:03] Yeah. Or, and it just kind of took, this started to just kind of take off. And then all of a sudden I was monetized. I was like, what does monetize mean? Who's sending me this money? You know? And they're like, oh, I made 50 cents today. It was like, it was just wild, I guess. I guess I'll do another video. Yeah, why not?

[00:16:23] So I guess from what you're sharing, like I know you've said in the past that you jump into things like quickly, and that may be due to your childhood and whatnot. Hmm. So this, it wasn't like jumping in, like you were nervous, you were worried like, oh my gosh, I'm putting myself out there to the world. It was kind of like low stakes and you're like, you know, I'll make a video and get some information out there.

[00:16:42] Or was there a little bit of hesitation in sort of putting yourself out there? Yeah, because, you know, I think for anything like that, I think as childhood trauma survivors I could do a whole video on this and I plan to, is to, being seen is not safe for the child, you know, for the, for the person. So I think as a human being, just putting yourself out there causes healthy anxiety, you know?

[00:17:03] But I think for like everything else with childhood trauma, it gets kind of amped up a bit. But I would say that what I'm grateful about my recovery or my childhood trauma work that I did with Amanda is as a creative person, I also did a lot of work on, like, there was this wonderful book in the, in the nineties, this whole podcast in the nineties there was a book called The Artist Way by Julie Cameron.

[00:17:25] Oh, I, and I was, I was doing that, doing that coursework while I was doing my childhood trauma work. And that's what just kind of made it safer and safer to put myself out there. So, you know, the, the work that we do in the therapy work, the r r p model is really kind of, Helping people take a bit more risk in life.

[00:17:44] Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? To quit their crappy job eventually and start their own business. What, you know, it's not the focus, but it's just childhood trauma survivors. I'm sure you get this, we're so rooted in what's gonna keep me safe, not putting myself out there or putting out videos that I think other people would like, not what I'm interested in, like all that stuff.

[00:18:05] So I, I, by the time I got there, I was a musician and I was able to put myself out there a bit, but it took a lot of work to get there. So it wasn't, it wasn't new to, to do something like that. Do you feel as well that because you went through such a profound healing journey and you saw results that also it was almost like your need for contribution was just a little bit bigger than your fears of putting yourself out there.
[00:18:27] Like obviously there's the element of working through being seen, but was it also coming, like I, I got the sense from how you described that, that it was almost like you were just excited to take this really meaningful work to you and, and share it and sort of put that perspective on it. Was that a part of it as well?
[00:18:42] Yeah, I think so. Well, it was just kind of singing that, what a lot of this stuff is, I've worked in a lot, I've worked in inpatient psychiatry units, I've worked in community mental health. Through my master's program. There were two internships that I did. But what the, the passion was coming from, I had this strange experience in therapy, of working with someone who was highly effective.

[00:19:08] Really heart based and the clients really were totally different by the time that they came out of a group. It was, it was just, you know, but I thought all therapy worked like that. And I had this rude awakening to being around other social workers or psychiatrists or psychologists that I'm not trying to, I just didn't see the same level of results or passion, or many of them were just simply not good at what they did.

[00:19:35] Or very cerebral or very like, here's the symptoms, here's the treatment or stuff. Like, there wasn't any magic to it that what I had kind of experienced. So putting out that video was kind of bringing out some of this. I really believe in my heart that people get too wrapped up in issues as opposed to when they should be looking at their story.

[00:19:53] Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? Like, so like all those questions about dismissive avoidant, or like reaction rejection disorder or that kind of stuff, they can almost be a little bit annoying to me because I wanna know about what was your mom like? What was it like to be five years old in that household that you grew up?

[00:20:11] I'm not really so concerned with those things, so that's really like what I kind of wanted to bring into. Like you'll see that in the role plays. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, like a lot of those times those things serve a purpose to identify and sort of encompass like some of the different patterns that might be within that.

[00:20:27] Absolutely. Yeah. Then if you just approach it from a cerebral perspective where you just start there, end there, you know, because you're a dismissable avoiding, for example, you have to do exactly this rather than bringing that experiential part into it and really using that to unpack more. I think that's where that really makes a huge difference.

[00:20:45] And I know too, from a diagnosis perspective, it can be so rewarding for people to learn, for example, that they have borderline personality disorder and that can make so much sense. But if you start and just sort of stop there or just approach it from a rigid perspective going forward, then it ends up being a huge limitation that somebody identifies with that label.

[00:21:04] Right. Rather than doing that deeper work underneath. Yes. Well said. I think the issues are important, but like they can't just be little bubbles of isolated issues. You know what I mean? Like in the background is. Your parents' marriage and the background is your relationship with siblings and the background is, generational tr like all kinds of stuff.

[00:21:24] but I get it, people don't have access to all that. People don't ac it's, you know, they have to really dig to find a therapist that can work with them in that way so they, all they know is the issues that they're reading about online or seeing, you know? Absolutely. And I'm curious to hear from your perspective, how many people who would come in and actually work with you, would you talk about their childhood and they wouldn't even really realize the impacts their childhood had.

[00:21:46] Like they were aware to some degree that they had been through some kind of trauma, but even recognizing, especially those sort of more covert forms of trauma what did you tend to see there? In the beginning of my practice my practice changed after a while where, when people would, you know, people like usuals, they would.

[00:22:04] Find me on Psychology Today or some kind of website or whatever, they would call me and they would, you know, like, I'm, I'm having marriage problems, do you know what I mean? I want, I wanna be a better parent. I, I just feel like I can't get it together or whatever. I started to really just in that phone call, really sort of tell them upfront that I really just really talk about childhood in a very deep, meaningful way.

[00:22:29] And we have tools and we have things that we do to get through that. But, you know, that's really the kind of work that I'm doing. But I'm doing past focus work, so when people would come in with present focus problems, I eventually kind of said, you know, caught wind of that. When people would come to me, they would kind of like, yeah, maybe things were rough around childhood, but I found myself kind of arguing with people about how bad it was.

[00:22:53] I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, over time is just sort of, it was just sort of, people started to know me as for what I did. So it changed from just kind of, it's like really just being like a general practitioner, you know what I mean? I'm having depression and anxiety, and then the model of therapy that I do isn't for everybody.

[00:23:13] Sometimes people just need present focus work and some other tools in some way. But what I'm really kind of doing is, is doing inner child work and really looking at the family system of war based ch you know, and finishing. But, so it's all this kind of a thing. I don't know if I answered your question there, but No, it was perfect.

[00:23:30] I was curious really how many people you would see come in and, and not even recognize like, oh, I have depression and anxiety or marital problems and, and not even recognize the impact of childhood. But you, you would definitely, yeah. Yeah, and I've had people that I've started that way and they, they were open to those ideas, but they didn't really know, you know what I mean?

[00:23:47] But a lot of people, They might have an idea, but when people start doing some work in R R P is they get a little bit worse before they get better. Because when you start to do some of the tools and the exercises, your childhood becomes very real to you. So if someone's just coming in for a present focus problem, you know what I mean?

[00:24:05] Like they start doing those exercises and it's a little bit like, oh, I don't know if I wanted this, which is like honest and valid. So that's why I started to really kind of say like, we do this whole, this whole process, you know? Yeah. That's beautiful. That's great. And I do believe you have to sort of target things at the roots, so Yeah.

[00:24:22] Cuz I don't wanna waste their time or mine either. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that it's just some, some people just literally need a really good couple's therapist and communication stuff, you know? And that's, it's all, it's all good. I know early in my journey I went to like a psychologist and I just didn't find it help too much.

[00:24:40] And my opinion was like, oh, therapy's not for me. You know, I don't think this stuff works. Sure, but really that's not fair. You like, you have to, if something doesn't work. There's so many different things out there and I truly believe like there is going to be something that like clicks for you. You have that aha moment and then it just starts like a momentum.

[00:24:58] So, you know, so well said. Yeah. Or something might not be for you. It might be exactly what somebody else needs. So, so true. You know? Yeah. But also like some, for some people, for some reason, I think at 19 when I found that work, I was so lost and so young that it was just like, yeah, I don't know. I'll go to a therapy, whatever, you know?

[00:25:15] Yeah. Yeah. I'll join a childhood trauma group. Sounds good. You know, there wasn't really a lot of thought to it. Right. But to your point, some people really benefit from like a year with a safe therapist just doing C B T. And getting some traction there or some kind of other therapy before they, you know what I mean?

[00:25:32] For like, to just do a deep dive the way that I did it. Right. Is not everyone's trajectory or story. Very good. Okay. Just switching gears a bit, I know you mentioned your attachment style before, so I just wanted to talk about attachment theory a bit. so we know attachment theory has become very popular in the last few years.

[00:25:49] You know, every day I see a new TikTok account or YouTube account or somebody new doing attachment theory, which is wonderful. So I'm just curious, when did you first hear about attachment theory? From Amanda Curtain's husband, Richard Cur, he's the sided that I reference in the reiki. You know, he's like, he's a traditional sided who got inspired by Reiki in the nineties.

[00:26:13] And I just remember in, in doing trainings with him or doing group supervision with him, he'd started to talk about disorganized attachment, fearful avoidant and all, you know what I mean? In a way like there's all these wonderful therapists that come from sort of like just sort of reading the old text Alice Mill, like it's been around for such a long time that it was just neat being around someone and it just kind of really piqued my interest.

[00:26:40] But it wasn't until recently that I really kind of really started to study it and do videos on it myself and like, what is it really? And just looking at those kind of four styles, I think it's a, a really neat system of looking at, and I like how specific it is and the older I get thinking about my own life is I see it as like more fluid than, than fixed.

[00:27:04] Right? Right. And I know you mentioned it before your attachment style, so I know the members of personal development school who are listening will be very interested to know what survey says. And you mentioned it, but I'll ask again. What is or was your attachment style and what have been some relationship challenges in the past that you may have encountered because of that attachment style?

[00:27:27] Sure. In my late teens, early twenties, thirties, well, late teens, twenties, probably a hodgepodge of anxious, preoccupied. Primary. Primary. That, and then when I got married and getting into a marriage, I think marriage in terms of intimacy is like the final frontier. And I think that people go through significant changes as they get married.

[00:27:51] I found myself to be, and I needed to do some work around it. I was dismissive, avoidant. Really just, you know, like when my son was born, I was really like kind of a typical cisgendered couple scenario. Where I was like, gotta make the money, gotta do the thing, you know, as, as the male. So I, I was on a mission to start a practice and I had a side hustle and doing all that stuff, but I was very absent and that's very different than how I was at 2022, which was like, please love me.
[00:28:23] And then as I was sort of now a father and a husband, it was the, the mantra was something like, don't need me. I'm busy. Like that's a very different kind of a thing. And it's funny, like picking up on both my parents, my mother was more anxious, preoccupied, but my dad's totally dismissive, avoidant. Lone wolf kind of a thing.

[00:28:44] I, I've never really fully resonated with disorganized Or fearful of what? I never really liked the word disorganized. It's not, you know what I mean? It's, it's something about it, but that'ss kind of like my story with it. And now like the where doing some more work on it is sort of finally landing in my forties.

[00:29:00] It's securely attached and loving my marriage is, it's a long time coming, takes a while. Yeah, for sure. What I, what I find so interesting about Fearful Learner or disorganized is that they have that anxious and avoidant side, and often through different sort of seasons of life, you'll experiencing be being more anxious or then being more avoidant.

[00:29:19] And I think that a common experience for people as well. And the term disorganized that I, that is interesting in there. I always call it fearful avoidant. I, I sort of prefer that name, but I feel like disorganize represents it quite well because the idea is that you don't have an organized attachment strategy because everything, so I was for sure a, a strong fearful avoidant and, and growing up, There was so many walking on eggshells and chaos and, and sort of fighting and arguing and, and all these sort of things that it's like you never know are you gonna get the good side of love or the bad side of love.

[00:29:53] And so you almost like store these subconscious competing associations about the same thing. So, you know, love is beautiful, but it's also terrifying. Totally. And that sort of, from, from my experience was that like push pull, you know? And so sometimes I would feel myself being very anxious and sometimes I would feel myself being super avoidant and it depended a little bit on like, the season of life and, and you know, who you're with.

[00:30:15] But also had many of those other sort of symptoms of, of trauma to work through at that time in my journey. Absolutely. Yeah. Loved hearing what you just said there. It makes me think about for the fearful avoidant of something comes to mind of almost like an expression of like, what am I gonna lose if I get into this?

[00:30:32] Absolutely. And it's also like at, at any moment things are, might be going well, but then you're thinking, when is the ball gonna drop? Like things are going too well right now. This can't be happening to me. You know? Mm-hmm. So there's always that innate fear that, okay, if things are going well, that, you know, at some point this person's gonna disappoint me or break my trust or do something bad.

[00:30:53] So you can imagine that would make the partner of that type of person feel kind of like, Hey, like I want, I'm committed to this, I wanna be with you. But there's just sort of that, that trauma that's in them that like, okay, when is, when is this bad thing gonna happen? You can imagine that would be very uncomfortable.

[00:31:09] Right. what were some big things that you saw that that helped you become more secure in your marriage? What, was there any sort of pattern you shifted or change or was just the result of constantly working on your ongoing roots and, and old traumas? Yeah, like just another layer of the onion where I went back and did some e EMDR work for the first time because I just couldn't get through this barrier of really connecting and really being present and really, you know, just sort of opening up in that way.

[00:31:39] And I saw a wonderful therapist. I've had really good luck in my life with therapists. In some ways I feel like I hit the therapy lottery that, you know, really hold in my heart. The woman, the work that I, that I did with this woman for about like 10 months to a year of it was almost like cleanup work.

[00:31:55] It was almost like sort of some, you know, in terms of the intimacy problems. But when I think about for listeners out there is, you know, not to discourage you about how, how long it takes or how much kind of, you know, there's like a really kind of a beautiful journey and all that, but it's just kind of to also grieve a little bit.

[00:32:14] It's like where, you know, so much gets lost. About when we don't grow up in safety, when we don't grow up in with, with parents that have their act together or something like that. Because it can really, it's like these are long lasting problems, you know? Absolutely. But they're, they're fixable, but they just like really, like, take some work.

[00:32:33] One thing I love about your story is that you always show up, you know, and, and I, I really appreciate how much you holds your therapist in high regard as well, and, and have so much appreciation for them. And also at every stage when you feel blocked, approaching things from such an open-minded perspective.

[00:32:49] And it's interesting cuz when we first sat down to chat before this, one of the first things that struck me about you was how emotionally available you are and how open for connection you are. And so it's, you know, you've obviously done that work. I'm, I'm actually surprised to hear that that was a barrier at some point.

[00:33:03] So that's really sweet. Cool. That's great. Thank you. Okay. Just switching gears a bit I want to talk about community, but I was just wondering what to you is the importance of community and healing and, and how did that play a role in sort of your journey? Right. Well, it was funny. It's very different right now where I think there's, I want to kind of answer the question in the form, in the formula of like a current problem and there's a problem in the self-healing community that I wish I had a better answer for.

[00:33:35] I think like in the self-healing community there's so many amazing, great resources. But my problem is I don't quite understand it because that's not the way that, what my experience was. So I don't wanna say one is bad, one is this one or the other. But I, for me, community was crucial. Started seeing sessions with Amanda.

[00:33:54] I was around 19 years old. Quickly got into a group of, I was one of eight people that came from very similar backgrounds and they gradually became like a surrogate family for me. We met for an hour and a half every week. We had outside contact, which was like a really a radical idea for a traditional psychotherapy group.

[00:34:14] And we would, you know, I just like thought, I don't remember the sessions, but here's what I remember. I remember at the bottom of the building there was like a little coffee shop and we would hang out for like 20 or 30 minutes in that coffee shop. And it was, that is the process of community that helped me become more comfortable in my own skin.

[00:34:33] Very anxious, very feral, very traumatized. And just now feeling like I was belonging in something was really, really powerful for me. Another part of community is I, I call it the great equalizer that everybody will come into one of my groups feeling like they're not messed up enough or they're too messed up.

[00:34:53] So being part of community, like if you've been sexually abused or if you've had a very narcissistic dad, or you, you feel like you were the only kid on the planet that had this really neurotic helicopter mom that just drained your energy like a vampire or something like that. Being around other people that had, you know, similar parents is extremely powerful because it takes away from what 12 step would call the terminal uniqueness of ourselves.

[00:35:21] So when people go to community, the inner child is like I don't belong here. The inner child is always gonna start there. And then for the, work that I do for the inner adult to keep kind of showing up and start to melt into that is to become more comfortable. Like, and a question for anyone listening is like, you'll know what I'm talking about if you just go to a party or if you go to a coffee shop.

[00:35:46] And that takes a lot of energy for you to be social. It takes a lot of, and you might have a hangover afterward or you might need recovery afterward. And I don't mean that this is out of context of, of something, of identifying with being neurodivergent, you know what I mean? Like the like, cuz that's, that's different.

[00:36:03] But if it's just C P T S D from Family of Origin trauma I think that it's people that get us traumatized and it's also people that's gonna get us healed. So there's this conundrum there, but the other piece about that problem is people don't have access to the kind of therapist that I had access to.

[00:36:22] People don't have the financial resources there's a lot of therapists out there that just aren't good for them. So do you know what I mean? Like I just like, I think that self-healing is, if you can't get to somebody, like I got to then definitely go with self-healing. But I do for the listener, is to push your boundaries a little bit and be part of some kind of community or group, 12 step, whatever, to be around other people because I don't think you're gonna heal your attachment trauma or your coping strategies or your reactions by doing even one of my courses alone in your apartment.

[00:36:57] Right. That's a really beautiful share. I think you're gonna inspire a lot of people with that. Thank you for sharing. Sure. I want to touch on a recent q and a video that you did. You answered a question regarding a narcissist parent who never owns up to anything. So two things that really stood out to me were, when you said, our inner child thinks there's a sane person in there that has the capacity to own something and be an adult and be mature when they don't, the inner child doesn't see toxicity.

[00:37:27] They're always holding out hope that someday the toxic parent is going to become a loving person and come clean. Can you expand on that a little bit? Sure. It's wrapped up in development. I think when a child hits puberty, our brains change and we can think more in the abstract. So the eight year old who has the very moody, narcissistic parent, the eight year old is gonna come home from second or third grade and be like, I hope dad's in a good mood today.

[00:37:56] Let's, you know what I mean? I really hope that dad isn't home, or I hope that mom's in a good mood. There's that hopeful quality kind of a built in forgetter. Do you know what I mean? Like, and that's not true for everyone. Even sometimes by the grammar school, the kid is just like, I do not like these people.

[00:38:11] I do not feel safe with them. And that's fine too. But most of us are like hopeful when we hit puberty, we start to realize they're not gonna change because our brain can now accept that reality on some level. And then what breaks my heart about trauma survivors being labeled as a moody teen or an acting out teen?

[00:38:30] It's not that like they've lost hope in their parents. That they would change or be better people or be less abusive or whatever. So coming back to that eight year old, many of us are kind of still stuck in that mentality where the eight year old we all needed, or if you identify with a trauma survivor, I needed another adult to come in and say, you know what?

[00:38:54] Your parents are really, really abusive to each other, to you. It's not just a bad day. Do you know what I mean? I just want, you know, I know that, or I want you to know that it's not you, or something like that. And when we don't get that, we kind of stick with that fantasy thinking. Sure. And then we find ourselves to be, financially exploited in a, in a narcissistic relationship at the age of 33.

[00:39:17] And we're still like, we're still kind of going like, I hope you had a good day. I hope it's gonna be different today. Right. One thing I noticed so much is how often people as well just, they're so accustomed to the way they grew up, that it takes so long to actually come out of that bubble and recognize that some of these patterns are so toxic.

[00:39:34] Right. And it's so, it's so normalized for them to have someone go into silent treatment mode and not talk to you for two or three days. then of course we go into our adult romantic relationships with similar people a lot of the time as well. Yep, yep. And Patrick, you also said the last part of healing is fully giving up on people who aren't good for us and giving up on their potential.

[00:39:56] So I was wondering if you could speak to that, like, when is it time to stop trying with narcissist parents or unhealed parents? And I'm wondering if that point is different for everyone. It's, I think it comes from after the end result of a lot of work. In my case that, you know, I think we have to really have a process around processing an abusive parent where we'll go from what we just said, kind of disbelief and hopeful to having an awakening that it's really that bad to maybe needing distance or boundaries or going no contact.

[00:40:33] And then in therapy, I, I kind of, it sounds weird, I feel like the emperor from Star Wars, but I'm trying to get people to be mad. They're like, feel your anger. You know what I mean? It's like they're just kind of, and that's really hard for codependent people, you know, about getting mad at the ways that, mom Lefty were the perpetrator, or dad really just took off or whatever, to really kind of get angry about what happened to them.

[00:40:59] Then comes some grief and grief. This is from Amanda. It's twofold. It comes, it's grief about what happened in our families, but it's also grief about the family that we didn't get. So I'm really kind of this vague summary, but by the end of a lot of work we lose interest both in our own story, but we also lose interest on the potential or the maybes that we really know.

[00:41:23] Here's the best way to put it, is that our inner adults can kind of say, or this more cerebral part of us, or the more prefrontal cortex can say, you know, my mom is just, there's something really, really up with my mom and she's really not safe, and I know that if I go to Thanksgiving, it's gonna be what it was every Thanksgiving or whatever.

[00:41:42] But the inner child who's like, but maybe if we bring the right pie or, or do whatever or show up in the right outfit or show up with the right girl or guy or whatever, it won't be like that, or something like that I think full healing takes place is when the inner child is like, yeah, she's never gonna change.

[00:42:00] And I don't need her to change. You know what I mean? It's just like she's, she's not right about me. You know what I mean? I'm done with trying to like doing the dance. So when both parties, the inner adult, the inner child kind of get it, that kind of tells me that they know that this is gonna sound, it's gonna sound ridiculous, but really bad analogy is if you've ever had food poisoning, like you ate shellfish 15 years ago and you just can't ever touch shellfish again, cuz it was such a bad experience.

[00:42:30] It's a little bit le, it's a little bit like that, but the inner child's magical thinking might be like, well, maybe I can do muscles this time, but it still makes you sick. But healing is just where we're, we kind of recoil from it. We're like, no thanks. You know what I mean? Right. Probably a bad analogy, but No, it's, it made sense.

[00:42:51] Totally made sense. Yeah, for sure. And I like what you said. I, I love what you said about how like we give up on the story, like our, we lose interest in our personal story. We're not so attached to like that, that sort of side of our personal story. And also we lose that attachment to the story of how it should have been instead.
[00:43:09] I think that's a, those are both signs of acceptance in a sense as well, like sort of shadowing those layers of attachment to a past that should have been different. Yeah. And it also makes me think losing interest means that you're, you've done so much healing work where you're not really having flashbacks about that trip in the summer, you know what I mean?

[00:43:28] Or whatever. You're not, it doesn't just pop up in your mind. And I don't mean a literal flashback can be that, but I just mean that your story is processed and done in a good enough way. When somebody, yeah. And when you retell it, if it ever comes up or somebody asks questions, you don't have that same emotional investment behind it.

[00:43:46] I, I remember just as an example for our listeners that I, I had one event that was very traumatic for me, and growing up, if I ever shared that event with people, I would, my heart would race and I would sort of, my mouth would go dry and that would be there. And then, you know, fast forward, I know if I told that story now, it would just be kind of like a story that sort of feels like a lifetime ago.

[00:44:05] There would be no emotional reaction in my body. And I think that sort of is, is representing you a great example, great example. You know, it's not the, your story doesn't run you anymore. It's just, just something factual. What was going on. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That's right. I know, Patrick, you shared you, you have the right to take as much time as you want to heal and become disinterested.

[00:44:28] So on that topic or of forgiveness you sort add a different spin that I've never heard before. When I've heard people talking about forgiveness and processes behind that. You mentioned that sometimes people want to jump to forgiveness first before they do the work. Mm-hmm. Why do you think forgiveness before doing your own healing work is probably not the best idea?

[00:44:47] Well, a little bit about that. It's, you know, forgiveness up front is in our culture, it's in our society. Do you know what I mean? It's in a lot of like religious ideas. It's a lot of in, it's in a lot of patriarchal ideas. Do you know what I mean? It's a lot of like, well, you know, your dad loves you. Well, you know, your mom loves you.
[00:45:02] Do you know what I mean? It's a, it's, there's a, there's kind of a gas, like when we really kind of think about it, I don't think anyone fully really knows what forgiveness really is. Right. Right. You know, I think losing interest in our story, I think recognizing that perpetrators are just ill people who have their own sadness in the world.
[00:45:21] You know what I mean? They just need to be sort of, I can feel sad for them from afar, but I see it's really a function of our co-dependency. I think as little kids, we look at our parents and we see how limited they are. We might see they can't get out of their own way, so kids are so heart based that it's, I think it's an old kind of a thing about like, I gotta forgive my dad, or it's just gonna eat away with me.

[00:45:45] You know what I mean? Where my argument really like, well, let's get you mad and let's get you grieving and let's let you finish business with him and then see how you feel afterward. And it's like, it's just, it's when I, even when I hear the word forgiveness, I think Hallmark. Yeah. I think of some flowery card.

[00:46:02] Yeah. That doesn't have a lot of substance to it. I think it's important. I don't think it's good for us to be perpetually resentful or triggered in that way. That's showing us that we need to do more work. But I think it's, I think a better word is disinterested. like, I, I wish you the best. I don't, I don't, my perpetrators, I don't wish them harm.

[00:46:20] You know what I mean? I just don't really want them in my life. Yeah, like having healthy boundaries around it. I do think as well, there's an element of what happens with people too is there's a difference between emotionally forgiving and intellectually forgiving. Like I think that sometimes people say, oh, I forgive them.
[00:46:35] Yeah, it's time to move on. And they brush it under the rug versus, I find
 that when people have the opportunity to do more post-traumatic growth, work around an experience and see all the lessons, yes, and learnings and growth and empowerment that came out of a traumatic event as well as, hey, that person is just another, you know, challenged person also in pain.

[00:46:53] And as well as that acceptance and you know, divesting from that story. I find those elements together can actually lead to like more of an emotional type forgiveness, where we emotionally let it go and, what I find people do often is they go, oh, just shove it under the rug. I should forgive. I should move on.

[00:47:10] My community would want me to forgive, my church, would want me to move on. But they haven't necessarily arrived there first, sort of to your point, like done that in our work first. And I think that could be. You know, sort of dangerous, you know, is a dramatic word, but in a sense it can be that way.

[00:47:24] Could you re-expose yourself over and over to that perpetrator again if you're just intellectually forgetting, right. Another piece to it, I, that was beautifully said, is, you know, I think that people are just in, if you, if you're really not getting help from a really good therapist or some are getting some good direction, I think someone might sort of start journaling about a perpetrator and then they think, I need to be done with this, so I'm gonna throw this journal into the c and just make it to be a moment and then be done with this.

[00:47:52] But another side of forgiveness is that it's not really done if you get triggered by your partner when your inner child thinks they're being a perpetrator with their mood, Absolutely. Like that's another layer of the forgiveness. I think people approaching it from an intellectual place or that place, which in a way, like I have, there's a, I'm not trying to poo poo on anybody, but when you see people who have been in recovery for a really long time in a program like 12 Step, and they, they might, they do have it together.

[00:48:20] They're very, very different. And they say, well, this program has totally healed me, but they're still not great with their partner, or they still lessen themselves around other people or that kind of way, and they're not in tune with that. That's where the stuff around finished business and forgiveness gets kind of cloudy.

[00:48:38] Absolutely, and I think that almost starts going back down to the trajectory of like its own form of bypassing, like how we have spiritual bypassing. I think we almost have like this intellectual bypassing that we do. Sure. We don't see those things come up or we don't recognize, hey, these actually have roots back and these triggers in my life that I'm currently projecting onto my partner or to whoever it might be, could represent unresolved traumas that I experience with my caregiver.

[00:49:03] And so now I'm seeing them through that lens of really the subconscious filter of my life that I'm sort of repro projecting back out onto. So I completely agree with you, right? And it's confusing for the survivor when we have an aunt that says to us, well, I just, I just accepted, you know, the aunt is like the you're, you have an an abusive mother, and the aunt is the sister of that mother.

[00:49:25] And the aunt says to you, well, I just know how to deal with her. And I just figured out a long time ago that she's a pretty wounded soul, so you should deal with her that way too, when that's another form of bypassing as well. That's just
 codependent kind of preaching and shaming the victim in that way where you haven't really figured out your sister, you don't deal with your sister.

[00:49:46] You don't live with your sister, do you know what I mean? Like, you don't, you're, you're not, you're not fully bothered by your sister enough, so you've kind of, I don't know if that's, that's beautifully said. And I think to your point, like there, there's this element of like this indirect, almost subtle shaming that happens because oh sure, I can avoid and repress the relationship issues with my sister and I can just sort of swop it under the rug.

[00:50:06] So you should thus be able to as well. And if you can't, there must be something faulty about you. And so I, I absolutely agree. I think that's a beautiful example. Yeah, people have big opinions, but they're not in the daily mess, you know, like, she's your sister, but you didn't know what was going on when I was going through prom with mom.

[00:50:25] You know what I mean? Like, right. Yeah. That, that should be a quote. That's gonna be one of the thousand miles away, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Thank you for sharing. Okay, so we're getting towards the end of the podcast. Sure. So I just wanna ask a few more questions. We're gonna go to a little more lighter note here.

[00:50:42] Okay. We like to ask our guests sort of what they're doing more on like a daily level type thing to keep themselves in like a, a good place grounded in a, in a happy space. So are there any non-negotiable rituals, Patrick, that you do every day that sort of keeps you grounded and balanced? They're not exactly non-negotiable, where I'm still in a process of coming back to my body and I've been sober since 99.

[00:51:06] I stopped smoking cigarettes in 2006. Still figuring out that sugar doesn't really make me feel great. You know, I'm still figuring out so much stuff, but really, I live a pretty general kind of healthy lifestyle, is I, I, you know, I'm not perfect at it. I try to put a turn of device off at 10. I went to the gym today.

[00:51:26] I try not to drink caffeine past noon, and I try to, you know, I've, like, I've, I've cut out a lot of carbs, but really, you know, I do a little bit of reiki on myself and meditation. But there's really no, like, I, I, you know, like I, I hang out for two hours and turn off social media and something like that, you know?

[00:51:46] Great answer. And then moving to self-care, you know, we always hear about self-care, mm-hmm. What does self-care look like for Patrick Tahan? I'm probably gonna throw you a curve ball with this for the listener out there I think that I couldn't, here's a good example. I couldn't meditate until I started to do some childhood trauma work because I had too much noise going on.

[00:52:06] So self-care is, you know jump on Instagram. I saw on Instagram this morning, like sort of like magic formula, you know, like eight hours of sleep, seven glasses of water, like these kinds of things. But for the trauma survivor out there, just know that when I was doing my first group of childhood trauma work, I was like, sort of like a pack and a half a day coffee addict.

[00:52:27] Struggling with pots, all kinds of coping strategies. So I think my point there is that I think if you can shift in therapy and do some work that's gonna create more head space to be able to somehow tackle something like getting to bed on time. Or you might, your inner child might need to feel safe with you in a ritual of going to bed, cuz there's trauma around that.

[00:52:49] So it might be loaded for you to get our eight hours of sleep. So just a, just a thought there about like, sort of self-care is like, I think a lot of therapists are like, sort of like might spend six months trying to get somebody to meditate, but they can't, they need something else before that. Yeah. No, it's different for everyone, for sure.

[00:53:07] Nice. And I think another one of it just, I, I really see like this one of your sort of superpowers through this discussion. I think it's really like meeting people where they're at. Right. And, and I see that, and I think that going back to what you were talking about earlier, where sometimes therapists approaches things from more of a an intellectualized sort of space.

[00:53:25] Yeah. Or just a cerebral space. And they forget like how unique each person is and how meet them where they are. And one person may be able to meditate a ton and somebody else, that might be one of the hardest things for them. And, and I really appreciate that. Like, you know, really meeting somebody where they're at.

[00:53:39] And I think that's, you know, true empathy and true compassion. Thank you. Definitely. I was hoping you were gonna mention your drumming for self-care, Patrick. Oh yeah, that's, yeah, that's pretty much, I've never, I've never walked away from my drum set feeling bad. That's right. I wanted to let our viewers know, if you're not on Patrick's Instagram, he plays the drums to different songs.

[00:53:59] Like, I Love your drumming To, that's Life, the Sinatra song. Oh. And then you'll have like words, either inspirational words or just a story to go along with it. Yeah. So I think that's really cool how you're kind of branching out creatively and having fun with it. Like it doesn't have to be all, you know, serious all the time.

[00:54:15] Thank you. Yeah. Playing drums. I, I grew up in a chaotic household, like one, I was encouraged to play drums, you know what I mean? My mom was pretty rock and roll, which is, was, there were some good parts to that, but it was still pretty just wacky. But the drum set is what got me through my childhood is being able to sit down.
[00:54:32] That's where all the wow emotional release kind of went to. So it's like I wouldn't have made it without that instrument. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. And right before I ask you about what, sort of, what you're offering these days and how people can contact you. Sure. I was wondering if you could leave our audience with a tool, a habit or a strategy or a perspective.

[00:54:51] What's something you can leave people with to live a more fulfilling life? The biggest tool that I have that I, you know, if you can't get to a therapist directly, is to start doing some dialoguing, which is right hand, left hand inner child work. That was, it's, it's developed by a bunch of people, but the way that Amanda cur formulated it is, I think that's, if there's any tool, that's the tool because.

[00:55:16] A good di What what dialoguing is, is you, you have a, a, a conversation with your inner child on paper between your dominant hand and your non-dominant hand. And the worksheet walks you through that and the webinar video walks you through that. Some science behind it is amygdala, frontal lobes. It has an a, an effect, not unlike EMDR with bilateral stimulation, cuz you're using different hemispheres with the right and left hand.

[00:55:40] But it could mean the difference of being in a four day trigger with your partner or dialoguing and figuring out where your inner child goes back to in the trigger and helping validate the trigger, but also making better sense of the present and that tool. You know what I really tell people about it is you could be in a trigger for four to five days, or you could be in a trigger for 45 minutes.

[00:56:04] To be able to really start to reparent yourself out of some things is really powerful. It's not the, it's not gonna heal your childhood. It's gonna manage your triggers and give you a much more of an integrated kind of connection with yourself. I think the healing in my place came flowing, group therapy and being around other people, but that's really the main thing that I, that I tell people to kind of dive into.
[00:56:27] Wow. That's powerful. I know what I'm doing this afternoon. Okay. I heard you mention you might be writing a book and maybe a r r p training later this year. Yes. I've never written a book before where, but I find that with every video I'm writing like 10 or 20 page outlines. So it's just, I'm in a, I'm in a place of just kind of putting notes together, but I would like to have a book on what the book is.

[00:56:52] What I would love to be a, the, the idea I have in my mind is to. Walk the reader through my experience in that first group therapy of telling my story, but also giving the clinical about what Amanda did with the R R P model in experiential therapy, doing rage work, doing intimacy work with those things.

[00:57:13] Very like concrete tool oriented. So I wanna be explaining my story as well as explaining the model. Right, right. So it's a little bit kind of tricky about like figuring out like how to do that. Sure. And how can people get in touch with you? Patrick tn therapy.com. It's probably the best way. There is a series of forms that you can ask me to connect about business stuff or you can fill out, if you wanna be screened by the two therapists who are under me, you can find therapists that I'm training on that website or connect with me.

[00:57:45] Instagram isn't really the best place. You know what I mean? And it's just like, there, there are some boundaries on that website that you, that, that I find that it's, I know it's, people see me as the trauma guy and they want to tell me my story, but in short, I'm sort of saying don't reach out to me and tell me a lot of things to not get a response from me because I'm overwhelmed with, with all of it.

[00:58:05] So, but that's how people generally kind of get to me, you know? Definitely. Yeah. That's great. Patrick, thank you so much for your time. We're gonna put all these in the show notes here, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, whatnot. We want our audience to totally jump on board with what you're offering, cuz I know it's helped me a lot and I just love your content.

[00:58:23] And I'd love for other people to enjoy it as well. Tyson, do you wanna say anything else? Yeah, thank you so much for being here. It was so nice to speak with you and, and beautiful shares and points and insights and I really enjoyed this conversation. So did I, I'm almost thinking we should put am we should put Amanda's contact in the show notes too.

[00:58:39] We've mentioned Amanda. She sounds absolutely amazing. Yeah, you can, you can find her on Instagram. Yeah, she's of an, she's doesn't, she's not, so, you know, she's just on there that people can get in touch with her. She doesn't really put out a lot of stuff. Okay. But yeah, like we, I, Amanda's funny. I keep trying to get her more out into the world and she's like, nah, Amanda come out.

[00:58:59] I know. Sound amazing. Okay, Patrick, thank you for being so generous with your time. We're so happy. Thank you for having me. For sure. And to our listeners, we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for tuning in.