Joanna Lach Podcast
[00:00:00] Joanna: If you're not doing any work around emotional processing, identifying your thoughts, you just believe in your stories and you are sure that this is the reality, right? And very often it's not. So I was able even to twist. Some facts in order to confirm my story.

[00:00:19] Thais: Hello and welcome to the Personal Development School podcast.
[00:00:23] Thais: I am so excited you're here. I am your co-host, Tae Gibson, along with our new special host, Mike Deso. This is a podcast that discusses everything related to integrated attachment theory, the new attachment theory, along with the subconscious mind relationships. Communication needs, boundaries, and so much more.

[00:00:45] Thais: Throughout this podcast, you'll see a series of episodes I upload with new information, educational tips, all about how to thrive in relationships and really master your emotional state in your life, along with special guests hosted by Mike Deso to discuss all of these amazing topics and some longer form content.

[00:01:02] Thais: Thank you so much for being here, and I really hope you enjoy this episode.
[00:01:11] Mike: Okay. P d s listeners and viewers. So my guest is a gifted professional who has been studying a variety of healing modalities and personal development tools for over a decade. Her personal healing journey of fearful avoided attachment style started when she was 21 years old, as she went through a lot of challenges in romantic relationships, which only a fearful avoidance can understand.

[00:01:32] Mike: The real breakthrough happened when she attended one of Thais Gibson's workshops. And that letter to being trained by Thais and then working as a coach. She's learned techniques that involve herbs, aromatherapy life coaching, Indian head massage, bachauer therapy, reiki meditation, and other subconscious breakthrough tools.

[00:01:51] Mike: Overall, she has over three years of experience of one-on-one coaching and couples therapy. Viewers and listeners, let's welcome Joanna Locke. So Joanna, just to start off, for people who might not know you, can you just give us a brief background for people who might not know your backstory just, you know, family life growing up, sort of what's brought you to where you are today.

[00:02:11] Joanna: I was born as a quite sensitive child. So any stress was actually a big stress for a sensitive child. And I grew up in a quite stressful household. My mom struggled in her marriage, so a lot of stress because of that and financially as well. And this all impacted me quite deeply. So I always felt her pain, her stress, and I always wanted to relieve that pain from her so she could pay more attention to me and be more more focused, more attentive

[00:02:46] Joanna: so typically for a fearful avoidant child, that specific environment, when it's a lot of stress mom is not fully present. Ups and downs in her mood as well. I was very sensitive to that. So that was my setup for the attachment style. 
[00:03:04] Mike: Okay, great. Thanks for sharing. So I just wanna ask now, in your own life, you know most people you interview had sort of like their own realization or catalyst or a moment that sort of pushed them into their own personal healing journey.

[00:03:18] Mike: Did that happen for you? Was there something sort of an event or something that happened that pushed you to really go all in on your healing? 
[00:03:24] Joanna: Yes, I, I quite early, maybe in this normal age, like quite early to me, in my opinion, I was really into romantic relationships. I saw in that area. Potential to finally feel safe or seen, appreciated, loved.

[00:03:44] Joanna: So I, I struggled from the beginning, let's say from the first love. and this continued till I was 21. Then I've met someone who was older than me and it was another heartbreak. So my mom was really like sad that I'm going through this romantic experiences and I feel sad and heartbroken.

[00:04:08] Joanna: And she recommended a book, Anthony Dlo Awakening. That was the first book I've read and I didn't understand, what's going on there now, I understand. But that was like first step. And then after that relationship when I was 21, actually it caused me depression around three years.

[00:04:29] Joanna: Depression, I'll call depression. I wanted to heal. I wanted to feel better. So I was looking for all the ways to heal myself and to not go through these breakups and heartbreaks again. And I was also very spiritual. Because of the stress I was going through at home, I developed that idea that Angels magic can solve the problem.

[00:04:54] Joanna: So I really enjoyed movies when there was witches or anything like that. Even I was involved a little bit in a white magic witchcraft and stuff like the expels love spells and things like this. Because I needed something extra, something magical to heal, to bring me that relief from pain.

[00:05:14] Joanna: Right. Right. So that was my, my my journey. And then I've met Tais in her work workshops about subconscious minds about. About beliefs, and I was listening to some of the videos about beliefs, but I didn't know how to identify the subconscious program. So everyone was telling you have to know your subconscious program to reprogram to get better, but I didn't know how to do this.

[00:05:38] Joanna: And ta was explaining how it's created and how to reprogram. 
[00:05:43] Mike: Right, right. That's similar to me as well with the subconscious, like you hear about the subconscious mind and we have to reprogram and whatnot. And the way I I was explained is like a computer program, like it's the backend you have to change, it's the coding.

[00:05:59] Mike: because the output is, you know, what we see, but it's the back. You have to go in the back end and the parts that you don't see and you have to sort of rewrite the code. But that's, that's great for, great for sharing. You were, you were saying sort of how that one relationship really, really kind of put you in a bad place and that forced you to sort of 

[00:06:17] Joanna: Yes.
[00:06:17] Joanna: Fearful avoidance generally have quite intense not intense, but painful love life. Right. So I am not an exemption of that. Yeah. I really believe that love the, the Mr Perfect that real love will heal everything. What I was struggling with, right, and I was quite, I could say obsessive about this, like fe to have this old pieces which represent love.

[00:06:45] Joanna: Yeah. Spells for love meditations for love, all of this related to romantic area. Now I see how it's one of the areas it's quite. Not small, but one of the areas of life. Right. And that obsession really went down. And I have balanced perception about the relationships. I am not fantasizing over fantasizing about romantic love.
[00:07:10] Joanna: And I was watching a lot of movies around this, like it was intense. Yeah. But I didn't know that I have a core wound around. Basic human need, love, and connections. 



[00:07:21] Mike: Right. You mentioned in your household, like yeah, you weren't seen, appreciated, loved, so that wasn't natural to sort of probably be able to give that to yourself, so you had to see Yes, 
[00:07:30] Joanna: yes.

[00:07:32] Joanna: You are appreciated for help for Comforting others. Yeah. When you, I was really helpful. Like I, I, when my brother was born, my mom said I was so helpful. Like, I remember that feeling when I was doing the reverting therapy. I remember the feeling when my brother was born. I was like, he's the most important.
[00:07:52] Joanna: He's small. I need to be the strong one. I was two years old. Yeah. But I remember that responsibility. And my mom was saying like, I was super helpful. I was taking care of him as much as I could. And that leads to that, you know, I don't need anything. I would take care of you 

[00:08:09] Mike: guys. Right. For sure.
[00:08:11] Mike: Would you say a lot of fearful avoidance, you know, were parentified where they were? Yes. Forced to do things that, you know, usually kids that age or, or don't really have any business doing? 

[00:08:21] Joanna: Yes. For the sake of attachment mm-hmm. We are able to see, oh, you appreciate me or you see me, or I feel loved or wanted.

[00:08:30] Joanna: Yeah. Needed is equal to love at this point. Right. If I'm needed, I am loved. So we do this out of that realization. Okay, my need could be met in that indirect way. Right. And then unfortunately we feel like we have a power to change your mood. To make you feel better, to fix you, to fix your life, to fix your problems, and in the healing you have to get to the point where you have impact.

[00:08:58] Joanna: You can help someone lift mood, but you don't have that much power. Like the codependency is born in that moment when we believe we have the power to actually. Change or fix you or improve your mood. And we take that responsibility on our shoulders. 
[00:09:18] Mike: Right. And if you fail and the person doesn't feel better, you, you sort of think it's your fault.


[00:09:22] Mike: You're not doing a good enough 
[00:09:23] Joanna: job. Yes. You feel shame and you feel anger, resentment. Yeah. Especially in friendships. I went through quite intense codependent friendship. Mm-hmm. Where that was. Intense. The, the anger, the fixing, the responsibility, all of this was present. It was really unhealthy

[00:09:43] Joanna: That was over 13 years. And when we split, it felt like a breakup, you know, like between couples When codependent fearful for avoidant women. 
[00:09:54] Mike: Wow. Okay. Thanks. Yeah. But this is the. That's the root. Yeah. So Joanne, I know you've done a lot of work to become secure.

[00:10:02] Mike: We know you're a fearful avoidant, obviously that was your main attachment style, and I remember you telling me once being fearful, avoidant is like walking in a minefield. you're stepping on triggers all the time, right? Like, it's like you can't get away from them. So it's actually a really, really hard attachment style to be, say that.

[00:10:21] Mike: What would you say were some of the most challenging things specifically about being fearful, avoidant. 

[00:10:26] Joanna: you believe your stories. The mind tell, you don't know that actually the mind is telling you stories. So if you're not doing any work around emotional processing, identifying your thoughts, you just believing your story so you.

[00:10:40] Joanna: Tell yourself stories about everything and everyone, and you are sure that this is the reality, right? And very often it's not. So I was able even to twist some facts in order to confirm my story. Okay? So my partners was like, wow, my mind is like exploding. How can you use this to, to create that story? But I was always Very strict with that.

[00:11:06] Joanna: And I was like, no, I know what you're thinking. I know what you're feeling. I know what you're doing. Right? So that suspicion, that anger, you're dealing with flip flopping. When you feel hurt and you shut down, this is the worst. for me it was the worst because you want to love, you want closeness, but the nervous system tells you shut down, be called punish this person.

[00:11:28] Joanna: Like sometimes four weeks, depends on the situation. being very mean aggressive because you don't know your boundaries, you don't express boundaries, you don't know anything about needs. Accusing people of things they don't think or feel right. Crossing other people's boundaries. It's, it's quite a lot, you know?

[00:11:49] Joanna: And It's very painful because you don't have this harmony, you don't have that stability, and you feel like love is not for you. Relationships are not for you. You will never find peace in the relationship. Why? It has to be always like this. You feel so disappointed and hurt. Then you are single.

[00:12:07] Joanna: You are working on yourself. You feel good, you feel more empowered, and then you have the hope again and again. The process happens. So, It's not fun. 

[00:12:16] Mike: Yeah. That sounds like quite the up and down roller coaster ride. Yeah. And then you mentioned like you become so attached to your stories that even if your partner who's loving you, wants to soothe you is telling you the opposite.

[00:12:28] Mike: Like, no, no. I, I, I don't think this way or I don't think that about you. You're just not having it. You don't believe them. You don't trust them. 

[00:12:34] Joanna: Yes. Yeah. You know better. You know better. And you'll find smallest proof to support 
[00:12:39] Mike: your story. And is it a fearful anything to remember one thing that happened?


[00:12:43] Mike: Like, well, I remember when you told me that little lie a year ago. So if this person lied a year ago, they're gonna be lying again. 

[00:12:52] Joanna: You remember everything? Yeah. Fearful avoidance is always keeping the back list and collecting proofs against you, but it's actually against the relationship. This is sad because we don't see actually our partners.

[00:13:06] Joanna: We not interested in them fully. We are interested in how they can hurt us. We just know you hurt me. It's a matter of time, right? So I will collect the proofs and I will use them whenever I can. Right? To prove that you are not on as genuine and stuff like that. So we not. We are not actually in a relationships fully.

[00:13:27] Joanna: We don't have that vulnerability. We don't have that trust, and we are not actually interested in the partner as we supposed to be. Mm-hmm. Because of that program is so strong and it's like, I want connection, I want love, but I know it'll hurt me, so I just need to be ready for this. 
[00:13:45] Mike: Mm-hmm. Okay. Wow, that's really challenging, obviously for you and then for the partner, so we can imagine 
[00:13:51] Joanna: Yes, yes.

[00:13:52] Joanna: For the partner as well, especially dismissive avoidance will suffer. I was quite aggressive and mean Toward my dismissive avoidance partners because I didn't understand how they operate. I didn't understand the attachment style and rules around it, so I was really shaming, like I used shame a lot.
[00:14:11] Joanna: Oh 

[00:14:11] Mike: wow. And das as we know the slightest bit of criticism, this is the worst, what you can do to the da. Yeah. Shut down. 
[00:14:19] Joanna: And I dunno why they still wanted to be with me cause I wouldn't. and what was challenging for me, not every few is going through this. I was breaking up with the partner around every five to six weeks, right.

[00:14:34] Joanna: So they were able. To handle this for a year and a half, sometimes more. Mm-hmm. But that was my later when I was working on myself, I discovered that I didn't go through the pain of separation when my dad left, so I wanted to feel that pain over and over. So I was using romantic relationship to subconsciously feel that pain because I, I remember my dad had to leave, not to leave us, but leave.

[00:15:04] Joanna: To create a better life for us to us. And I remember I was four years old and I was shocked. Like it was surprised. That's why I don't like surprises. And I froze in that stress and I couldn't process that pain of separation with him because he was spending a lot of time with me back then. And then I was doing that.

[00:15:25] Joanna: I wanted to feel that pain to complete that. Mm-hmm. In the romantic relationships. Wow. So, and I actually enjoyed the breakup. I actually enjoyed the breakup. Really? Yeah. Yes. I was like, it's overly you doing this. You never text me, you nev you don't love me. All of these accusations. And I'm like, I need to break That breakup was satisfying, you know?

[00:15:49] Joanna: And, but they couldn't live like this and my boyfriends. Because every, I had didn't have many, but each partner went through that process with me. Yeah. He was like, but everything is okay and please don't do this. And I'm like, no, we have to, we have to break up. And then two days later I'm like, okay, we can go back.

[00:16:10] Mike: Yeah. Wow. It's exhausting. for sure. So what's been one of your biggest areas of inner growth? Meaning like what area have you healed that makes you feel a lot more relief where it's just so much easier now that you've done some healing on this? 

[00:16:24] Joanna: So now I understand that I have needs and I have to meet these needs and I have to express and receive I understand boundaries.

[00:16:35] Joanna: I understand that emotion is a feedback mechanism. I feel empowered. I know that of course I experience pain and moments of shame, which I'm working on still. I struggle with shame and I want to bring awareness around shame to everyone who I work with because I see eventually we get to the point on a session that we talk about shame.

[00:16:56] Joanna: It's, it's at the bottom of everything. Mm-hmm. So I feel empowered. I have the shame, anxiety, I have the shame attacks, but I know that I will work through this. I feel empowered. I don't feel like I am helpless that this is a never ending story. I understand it's just a part of life and I feel empowered all my emotions and I'm not blaming anyone or self or having challenges.

[00:17:28] Joanna: So the biggest benefit is that I feel more relaxed around people. I feel more relaxed in my body because I also struggled with eating disorders and body shaming. And I feel more empowered generally around my emotions. Right. So that's, that's, that's amazing. That's, that's 
[00:17:49] Mike: really beautiful.

[00:17:50] Mike: Definitely amazing. I'm so happy to hear that. Okay, so for anyone listening who's at phase, and just as a side note, like I keep hearing the statistic that 5% of the population are fearful, avoidant, but obviously like I work for a personal development school and I would say like a lot of people are fearful, avoidant in the school, but then I'm thinking if, but fearful avoidance are variant to healing and, and trying to understand things and whatnot.

[00:18:16] Mike: So is it just. The amount of people in the school are fearful, avoidant because they're more apt to search for inner healing, or do you think there's a lot more than 5% of fearful avoidance on the planet? That's 

[00:18:29] Joanna: a good question. Because all my clients, let's say, are fearful avoidance. Yeah. Mostly, like mostly I also now coach dismissive avoidance.

[00:18:38] Joanna: Mm-hmm. Anxious preoccupied also. But yes, when I've read this book attached that was first book I, I, I've read about attachment theory. Mm-hmm. And I remember one of the first page they say, Around 4% is the attachment, which is a mix of dismissive and anxious, preoccupied, but it's just a small amount of people, so will not talk about this attachment in the book.

[00:19:03] Joanna: I remember when I said, thank God I'm not this. 
[00:19:07] Mike: Yeah, that's funny. 
[00:19:08] Joanna: And they focused on anxious, preoccupied, dismissive of violent dynamic. Yeah. So I was sure I am anxious, preoccupied. Then TA told me, you are not anxious, preoccupied, you are fearful, avoided. I'm like, no, I am anxious, preoccupied.
[00:19:22] Joanna: I'm a hundred percent I've read the book. And she said, no, you're fearful, avoided. And then yes, I think that percentage is much, much lower than the reality. 


[00:19:31] Mike: Right, right. we'll ask Tyce when she gets on here. We'll, we'll ask her opinion of what percentage she thinks. Well, yes. Maybe 
[00:19:38] Joanna: she gets better.

[00:19:40] Mike: Yeah. So for fearful avoidance who are listening, what are some of the most important things that a fearful avoidant needs to focus on in their healing? Is it boundaries? Is it ending codependency? Like, I know there's a lot, but what would you say are just some, if you wanna isolate a few areas that a fa really needs to target, 

[00:19:57] Joanna: Stories, reframing thoughts, questioning the story, identifying that you don't trust people, you don't trust yourself because you don't set boundaries.

[00:20:07] Joanna: You don't know your boundaries. You are afraid of Expressing your boundaries Because trauma is based on unmet needs. So you have to address needs in each attachment style. But for people, one is quite important part. And then perfectionism. You can work on codependency.

[00:20:27] Joanna: Huge for some. I still mm-hmm. Have patterns and shape. Right. 
[00:20:32] Mike: Right. Okay. And obviously in the personal development school, we have a lot of courses dedicated to healing FA wounds, so definitely check out some of the courses and the offerings there. So next, in your coaching practice what are some of the most common issues you hear about people struggling with in relationships, and why do you think that's such a common struggle for people?

[00:20:52] Joanna: People don't understand themselves. And they operate from that program which was created with the caregivers and now they apply this in romantic relationship. So I believe in the theory that what we couldn't get from parent will try from romantic partner and what we couldn't resolve with parent or try result with romantic partner.

[00:21:16] Joanna: I was trying to break my dismissive, avoidant partners and force them to be loving, interested, caring spending time with me the way I want. Intensity, right? I wanted them to be intense, affectionate. That was like, I call it, I will break you. I will force you. I'll get it. Right. So I believe subconsciously we are attracted to person who feel like parent or both parents.

[00:21:45] Joanna: Mm-hmm. And then we trying to resolve this issues, this problems with that partner. And in my coaching, I am asking a, a client, so your partner feels more like that or more like mom. And then we, through that coaching process, we discover, okay, actually when he's doing this, it feels like my mom when he's doing that or she's doing that, feels more like my dad.

[00:22:12] Joanna: So there is always correlation in that in that feeling in that state when we are with the partner. 
[00:22:20] Mike: Wow. Okay. And getting to know yourself is, you were saying it. Yes. 
[00:22:24] Joanna: Getting to know yourself. Yeah. Is because you don't know yourself and you don't know your program. Right. You don't know that actually your mind dictates how you will react to certain behaviors.


[00:22:36] Joanna: Mm-hmm. You make it mean I am not important. I'm not worthy, I am not good enough. Right. You act outta that self-perception. I call it. Start self-perception. The core belief, I call it start self-perception. How I see myself, what I believe about myself. I am not in good enough because you prefer to be alone instead of sitting with me on a couch, right?

[00:22:58] Joanna: So, right. We believe this is true, 
[00:23:01] Mike: for sure. Those painful stories, we believe they're true. We're sending in like. the, the neurochemicals of, pain and fear and worry. Yeah. And if we have that on all the time, you know, it's really affecting our, our health. And 
[00:23:14] Joanna: of course we're gonna, that's why we cause arguments.

[00:23:17] Joanna: We accuse our partners, we tell them how wrong they are, how they should be different. Yeah. Few avoidants more expressing that criticism and right complaints. Dismissive, avoidant partners will just take it in and take it in and not express, but eventually will really hurt. Right. And really affect them.
[00:23:40] Joanna: Sure. Sure. So through behavior, the DA through behavior will show a you hurting me, fa rewards 

[00:23:48] Mike: through words. Yeah. They can cut like a knife. But wonderful people. Absolutely wonderful people. So sweet. And of 
[00:23:55] Joanna: course now I know, but before I 
[00:23:57] Mike: did it, the depth of conversation you get with fas are absolutely awesome.

[00:24:02] Mike: really go deep and really talk about things, you know, beyond the surface. And I love that kind of stuff. So I really 

[00:24:09] Joanna: it's, it's beautiful. It's a gift. I am so grateful to. To Taiz that she she showed me that path. Mm-hmm. Because without her, I thought I couldn't, like, I didn't even dream to of that, but I had a strong beliefs about men.

[00:24:25] Joanna: Like in my country, you kind of disrespect men and you talk badly about men. Mm-hmm. In generally my family for sure. So I have a strong negative beliefs about men. And this work, I worked with many men at this point. It's, it's such a gift to see the truth, to not have this distorted.

[00:24:48] Joanna: Perception and beliefs about men and das and any attachment you want to choose. Sure. So I've met so many beautiful and kind and loving men, and now I can tell clients who believe there is no man who is loving and stuff like, I'm like, no, I've met many, many, I had to believe. That men don't want relationships.

[00:25:08] Joanna: Can you imagine all men? That's not only when men want to get married, only women want to have family. Yeah. Only women want to have harder and men 

[00:25:17] Mike: don't. You're just forcing us all into it. Yeah. 
[00:25:20] Joanna: We just, yes, you just are for some reason. Do 
[00:25:23] Mike: it, but you don't want it. Yeah. We're like, oh, fine. Okay. Just to, that was my strong belief.

[00:25:29] Mike: That's wow. We can imagine, yeah. If you have that belief, how you're gonna sort of view, view men Ah, that was bad. Yeah. But yeah, that's, that just shows you, it's good to look at our beliefs. A lot of our beliefs were implanted into us without even, you know, realizing it. Right. So it's not until you really look at your beliefs, you're like, do I believe that anymore?

[00:25:46] Mike: Is that, is that really true or was that something that was sort of taught to me at a young age or, you know, maybe I saw in movies when I was younger. So it's really good to question your beliefs and you might see where they're, where of course there would be blocks in your relationship if you're having these types of beliefs, about men or it can be any, any sort of topics, right?

[00:26:05] Joanna: Sometimes you don't know you have beliefs. You, you, because they're so imprinted and. Treated as hundred percent true. When I have sessions, people, especially women, they say like, oh my gosh, I, I believe this crazy stuff about men love relationship. I'm like, yeah, this is, this is so important to find out how you operate from the subconscious level.
[00:26:25] Joanna: Exactly. 
[00:26:27] Mike: Just to share my own belief like one of the many sort of. Negative or like limiting beliefs I had in the past was that relationships should be like honeymoon all the time. Like you, you and your partner should never argue. It should be light. It should be fun. It should be always like a good time.

[00:26:45] Mike: And if it's not, that just means you're not with the right person. It's not, yeah. Then there's, there's, I think there's somebody else better out there for you. And then I would move on, move on to the next. But it's like, no, like, hey, you're not perfect. So like, Why do you think somebody else out there is gonna never be like, triggered by you or you triggered by them?

[00:27:03] Mike: Like, it's just impossible. It's, it was such a, it was a hard expectation and, you know, I realized that, you know, dating me in the past was probably tough. But you know, I've done a lot of work on myself now and, you know, all we can do is sort of learn and grow and. And get better.

[00:27:21] Mike: So I'm glad I don't have that belief anymore because Yes, I'm 
[00:27:24] Joanna: glad too, because you're not living in one sided reality, 
[00:27:28] Mike: you know? That's for, that's for sure. Okay, so we know you're trained by Ty personally and you use a lot of the personal development school tools in your practice. What tool would you say is like really impactful that you like to use and has like a really good effect on your clients?

[00:27:44] Joanna: I use for my own healing and reprogramming thoughts reframing. Mm-hmm. So you actually identifying your thoughts and then you're creating realistic but less painful version. So questioning your thoughts, reframing them, and the b t a process. That process. It's a, it's identification of belief, thought, emotion, action.

[00:28:07] Joanna: And you also add a trigger for my own healing, I like to add at the end memory. When was that first time I felt this way? Mm-hmm. So I like to add memory to that, but it's not necessary, but when you have this on the paper, you creating the detachment, this is your program. Mm-hmm. This is what stores in your subconscious mind, so I call it like when you have Windows eight, well, you need to update this to Windows 10, because Windows 10 is better.

[00:28:34] Joanna: Mm-hmm. But still, it's a program, but you need to see it like, you need to know what program you have, and that process helps you to identify your program. That's wonderful. So it's my, my favorite. 
[00:28:47] Mike: Yeah. Excellent. And just switching in relationships in general, if you were to look at relationships, what would you say is sort of an important tool or something that's important to keep relationships in a healthy place and not just having them on autopilot?


[00:29:02] Mike: What would you say for anybody listening, what's something you could sort of share that keeps a relationship in a good place that people should be mindful of? 
[00:29:10] Joanna: Yes. in my opinion, the base of the good relationship is the base, the loving relationship you have with yourself. Mm-hmm. Because when you are really at to yourself and you kind and you know yourself, and you have routines and self care practice, and you show the ongoing interest in yourself naturally.


[00:29:30] Joanna: You will better communicate. You will know what you need. You will have much more space for another person. It's, it happens naturally because you are so understanding towards yourself and so caring you are giving what you, what you're experiencing. Right? Right. We can only give that as much love as we offer ourselves.

[00:29:50] Joanna: So you are more understanding, more compassionate. More interested. Like you, you show the interest because you show interest yourself. So that is quite easy to, yeah, to have a relationship for sure. When this, for you have good relationship 

[00:30:06] Mike: with self, I would imagine clearing your core wounds are at least like lessening them quite a bit.

[00:30:11] Mike: You won't get triggered by your partner sort of inadvertently, like if your partner says something and you have a deep core wound around it, but they weren't trying to say that at all. I'm trying to think of an example, but like, You know, people can take, take offense to just a normal comment like, why can't you put the toilet seat down?

[00:30:28] Mike: And then some, yes, yes, yes, yes. Wound around, you know, feeling shame or not good enough. If they hear that many times and it seems like their partner's annoyed, they might feel like, oh, my partners doesn't think I'm good enough, or, you know what I mean? 

[00:30:41] Joanna: Yeah. The lack awareness of shame. Yeah. Is huge damage to the romantic relationship and any relationship.
[00:30:51] Joanna: Sure. I am aware of my shame. I know how it feels in my body. I know when I have it. I know when I'm under shame attack and I know the cause. So let's say my partner will say something which I could interpret as I'm defective or not doing enough or mm-hmm. I am wrong or faulty or bad.

[00:31:11] Joanna: I feel that pain, I feel that shame being activated, but because I have the awareness, I can communicate, like the partner can see that I shut down, right. That something happened. But I have to say like, you know, it hurts and I feel stressed. I feel like I'm freezing. I need time to. to relax. Mm-hmm. And this is what's happening for me.

[00:31:35] Joanna: I dunno if this will ever change. I need everyday text message with the emojis. Emojis play. Huge role in the message. It has to be hard. It has to be. At least two, three emojis with their heart. I have to have it. I just have to have it, and it calms me down. It reassure me that we are in a good place, that everything is okay.
[00:31:58] Joanna: So if I'm getting different emojis, I'm like, okay, let's come down. This is just different emo, let's say different color of the heart, not red, maybe pink or yellow. I'm like, oh, yellow. Why yellow? Why's not red? Right. So I am able to regulate right now, but in the past I was getting panic attack when I didn't get a message.
[00:32:20] Joanna: Wow. Panic attack 

[00:32:21] Mike: and let, it's so beautiful that now share what's going on inside for you. Because if a partner has no clue that your struggle with those types of things, that they're gonna think nothing's wrong, or when they send this emoji or that emoji, they think everything's fine. But on your end, you're like really struggling like.

[00:32:38] Mike: You know, partners need to know that, to work with each 
[00:32:40] Joanna: other need. So yeah. To support you in healing, the partner needs to know, like, I am very clear about this. This is nonnegotiable for me, right? It has to happen because we need to build that base. And in order for me to build that base, I need that emoji.

[00:32:56] Joanna: I need that message. Yeah. And I, I am still sensitive to changing in patterns like the colors of the heart or. Differently. I am Sens. I'm not denying this, but I'm able to work through this. I'm not accusing my partner, oh, you don't love me anymore because you sent Yellow Heart instead of Red Heart.
[00:33:17] Joanna: Right? I'm not doing that right. But I noticed it. Ah, my mind was like, something is different. 

[00:33:23] Mike: Interesting. Okay. Thanks for sharing that. So as a former fearful avoidant who's done a lot of work on herself, obviously what message of hope and or inspiration would you give to somebody who maybe just did the quiz recently?
[00:33:36] Mike: They found out they're fearful, avoidant, and maybe they're like, oh my gosh, like, I don't think I'm ever gonna be able to heal. Like, what sort of words of inspiration or hope would you give to somebody who's in that stage right now? 
[00:33:47] Joanna: Okay, so when you discovered this right now, you are in a wonderful position because you know that what's going on.
[00:33:54] Joanna: Mm-hmm. Right? And a few years ago you would be told, this is your attachment. You need to deal with this. Find secure part. That would be the advice. 
[00:34:04] Mike: Secure partner was the advice. Yeah. 
[00:34:06] Joanna: Yes. Today we know thanks to Daise. That you don't need to live with that attachment, and you can reprogram that. It's just a set of rules.

[00:34:16] Joanna: It's a, a, it's association to love, to connection to to your needs. There are wounds around these needs. You don't understand these rules. You operate from it, from them, but you not understand them. You don't even know them. So now if you know that you're fearful, avoidant, you are in a wonderful place of awareness.

[00:34:35] Joanna: So 50% of healing is done when you are aware of the program. The rest of it's just reprogramming. I, I know I don't want to minimize anyone's experience and trauma because some of us went through severe trauma and the result is that attachment. But if you can just give yourself a little bit of time.

[00:34:59] Joanna: Interest and just try a simple questioning stories. Simple proves that you actually assign a meaning to things, but reality could be different. And sometimes you even have proved that reality is different, but you still stick on that. No, I know my story. If you open up to that, we have all the tools necessary.
[00:35:20] Joanna: We have coaching, we have everything to support that hearing. So in this time and place, you are in a wonderful position. Few years ago, you would be advised, find secure partner. 

[00:35:34] Mike: If it was only as easy as that, eh, just go out and get a secure, 
[00:35:39] Joanna: People avoidance are not attracted so much to, to 
[00:35:41] Mike: secure people.
[00:35:42] Mike: No. Too boring, right? There's no emotional. 
[00:35:45] Joanna: They will call them boring. 
[00:35:47] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Not, like, not this passionate, emotional, yeah. Up and down, push, pull, all that kind of thing. They're sort of, yeah. That's their comfort zone, I guess. Right. Yes, exactly. Yeah. 

[00:35:59] Joanna: So that advice was really wrong advice. Mm-hmm. Not per of 100%.
[00:36:07] Joanna: So thank God Taiz was able to identify all of this, created that program, and offered the healing to all of us who struggle with insecure attachment style. 

[00:36:18] Mike: Definitely. That's great. Okay, so just to shift gears a little bit, we love to ask about what people are doing sort of on a day-to-day basis and give people sort of inspiration of something they can maybe add to their own life.
[00:36:31] Mike: So for Joanna, like are there any non-negotiable rituals that you do every day that keep you balanced or in a good place? 
[00:36:39] Joanna: Paying attention to my thoughts. Yeah. And how I treat myself. is what really helps me not like working through that shame identifying that, oh, again, I see my, like, I call it finding fault pattern.

[00:36:54] Joanna: Like I always find the fault in me or environment to keep going that program, because the program has to be maintained. If you go on the island, no people, nothing, no triggers. Your mind will start bringing memories from past to maintain your program. Mm-hmm. So it has to be nurtured. It has to be maintained.

[00:37:15] Joanna: So when I have, like I noticed that I'm not in a good place, I'm like, okay, what am I maintaining right now? Not good enough. I am bad. What's going on? So my known comfortable as to I have to pay attention all the time to what's going on. Okay. Read that feedback. Be attuned, interested in self. This is this is what helps me to feel empowered and regulated.

[00:37:42] Joanna: That's 
[00:37:42] Mike: great. And then with self-care what does self-care look like for Joanne 

[00:37:47] Joanna: Self-Care? I like to journal for sure in the morning. Yeah. I like meditations. Mm-hmm. Guided meditations. Part time gives me also a lot of like, relaxing and reconnecting with myself. Mm-hmm. Hugging my cut all the time.
[00:38:06] Joanna: Yeah. Since I have my cut, I never feel lonely. So yes, this is like connecting with you'll see the personality needs. Well actually dictate that self-care. So if I make money, if I learn, if I connect with my family and I have contact with my romantic partner, my life is amazing. 

[00:38:28] Mike: You feel great.
[00:38:29] Mike: Energized. Happy. 
[00:38:31] Joanna: Yes. The, the making money the world gives me the security learning, personal growth. Right, right. Family connection because I value family and emotional cultural, family and romantic because I value romantic connection a lot. So when I have this and then beauty, like beautiful objects in my life, going to store with beautiful objects or clothes, my life is amazing.

[00:38:56] Mike: That's awesome. And I know you probably help clients understand their personality needs. Yes, it's, and it's obviously it's portion of coaching. Exactly. So it's so important we could be focusing so much of our time and attention on things that are not even remotely close to our biggest personality needs.

[00:39:16] Mike: So once we get to determine what our highest personality needs are and we consciously fill those, yes, during the day, we're gonna feel like that'll be game changer because these are the things that drive, these are the things that our subconscious mind wants and is trying to drive us towards. But we're maybe going the other direction cuz we think consciously that, oh, you know, I want this or I want that.
[00:39:38] Mike: But we're, or 

[00:39:39] Joanna: sometimes we are judged, or let's say I was called Scrooge because I save money and I am very careful with spending money. So I, I buy stuff on sale, right? So I was called by people that I'm cheap or screwed. Yes, I am. I'm not, I am not ashamed of this. Yeah. My mom and my family was like, why you always study something?
[00:40:02] Joanna: Like I was taking courses going to schools. Like my family was like, will you ever finish that process? Yeah, now I understand. Now I'll never finish that process. You're a lifelong learner. I'll always save money. I'll always be focused on making money. I will always learn, I will always take courses. I will always look for more self-help growth, right?


[00:40:27] Joanna: Mm-hmm. The, the, the, the learning, the, it'll never end, and I'll always enjoy talking about love. I can talk about romantic relationship all day long, and this is what I do for a living, so it's beautiful. But really, I, I enjoy hearing the love stories and, and how people met and how their relationship was evolving.
[00:40:50] Joanna: Like I really enjoyed it. 
[00:40:52] Mike: That's amazing. That's good. You know a lot about yourself. Of course. 

[00:40:55] Joanna: Yeah. That's why I don't judge myself. 
[00:40:57] Mike: for sure. No, I love that. And everyone has these different personality needs and you know, your parents or your friends might not understand why you're doing certain things, but Exactly.
[00:41:07] Mike: If those are your personality needs, if. You need to fill those regardless of what other people say because 

[00:41:14] Joanna: Exactly. You know, when someone calls me cheap, I'm like, yeah, I am cheap and I'm proud of it. Yeah. I'm cheap because it gives me, it supports that personality need. Yeah. For security on subconscious level.

[00:41:28] Joanna: I associate that money saved on sale as a. Supporting my security. Yeah. Why would I give up on this if it's not the worst method? Like it's not harming anyone. Right. Why would I give up on this? But, so then I can set the boundary, Hey, this, this is little bit like harsh. Mm-hmm. And I know what I, why I am doing this and yeah.
[00:41:50] Joanna: I don't see anything like wrong with that. And no, no one, there is no drawback, right. For that action. It's not unhealthy. It's not unhealthy, so please like watch your awards. 


[00:42:04] Mike: Right. Great. Good for you. Yeah. One last thing about needs. It's just such an important topic that like a lot of times we're comparing ourselves to other people on social media or whatnot, and we're saying, oh, I should be doing this, I should have that.

[00:42:17] Mike: But sometimes that doesn't support your needs at all. Like, for example You'll see somebody on a yacht and they have a lot of money, and they look like they're just living this lavish lifestyle. Well, okay, you don't have this lavish lifestyle. But when I ask the person, how many books have you read on wealth creation?

[00:42:34] Mike: How many seminars have you attended on like building finances? How many books have you read on this type of stuff? And the eyes are usually like none. Because they're busy doing other things that are more in alignment with their needs. So maybe they're, more into emotional connection. Yes.

[00:42:48] Mike: Like that really makes them feel great. So they're always out connecting with people emotionally and feeling nourished that way. So we could really be sort of let off the path by seeing people and being like, wow, I want that life, but that life might not support your personality needs. So you're really, you know, shooting at a target that's not gonna make you.
[00:43:11] Mike: Totally fulfilled. 

[00:43:13] Joanna: Exactly. Yeah. This is super important. I didn't know that. Fantasies are a huge source of identifying our needs because we fantasize when we cannot meet our needs. In reality, mine starts fantasizing. So right now, when people like, have, I have clients who are like little bit ashamed of telling me, you know, I'm fantasizing about this and that.

[00:43:34] Joanna: I'm like, no, don't be ashamed. This is, this is knowledge you. We need your fantasy, right to use, to identify your needs because. This is that, well, you can, you can discover from what you actually needing, but you are not experiencing in real life. So please tell me your fantasies. Right. We need to identify them.
[00:43:57] Joanna: Of course. If someone doesn't feel comfortable, I'm just encouraging. Okay. Use the fantasy to identify needs. 

[00:44:02] Mike: Exactly. Wow. I love that. So Joanna, you've been coaching for three plus years, almost four years. How would you sort of summarize your coaching style and, and what do you sort of offer in the way that you coach people?
[00:44:17] Joanna: So for sure, because I am for avoidant the bigger understanding I will have around someone who has the same attachment style, but because I also understand the whole process of creating attachment and beliefs and how the subconscious mind works so I specialize, let's say.

[00:44:35] Joanna: And identifying dots and connecting them. I love that portion of investigation. So very often I hear from clients like, wow, this makes sense. It's exactly how I feel because I love that process of, of investigation. I also, I will always was fascinated by that, you know, discovering. Evidence and yeah, and collecting proofs.
[00:45:00] Joanna: Like I could work in a law enforcement, I think 
[00:45:05] Mike: Burlock Holmes movies detective. 

[00:45:08] Joanna: So this is what I really enjoyed, like, okay, so you feel this way, you think this, this is the reason, this is the belief I show the whole program. Mm-hmm. And the next portion is of reprogramming and testing, which Tool to use and practice reprogramming.

[00:45:24] Joanna: I call it updating, right? I call it like you have a program. Okay? We need to update that, right? It's not working anymore. Well we're serving you as a, in a childhood. No, it's not serving you in a romantic area. So yes, I, I love that investigation process and identifying their subconscious problem.

[00:45:43] Mike: It's just like how, yeah, the investigators, they put all the evidence up on the wall and see uhhuh, okay, that this happened here, this happened here, and you could actually see what's going on instead of sort of just like rattling around in your mind and not really able to see it from a bird's eye view.

[00:46:01] Mike: So that's a wonderful process and sounds very 
[00:46:03] Joanna: beneficial. I really enjoy 

[00:46:05] Mike: it. I really enjoy it. Nice. Okay. And then we're getting towards the end here today, Joanna, do you wanna share a tool, a habit, or a strategy with the audience that you can leave them with that can help us improve tool 
[00:46:19] Joanna: take courses, PDFs, 

[00:46:20] Mike: courses, take PDFs courses. Okay. This is great 
[00:46:24] Joanna: tool for the rest of your life. You'll benefit from it. You'll practice be kind to yourself, learn to le repair the relationship with your inner critic. This is part of you who is very helpful, but needs to be silent. Yeah. So learn.

[00:46:43] Joanna: How to repair that, how to improve that relationship with your inner critic. Mm-hmm. And show interest in yourself. And the more you will have compassion, understanding towards self, you will have naturally for other people. So we'll create, you'll create a better place for everyone because you have much more patience, understanding compassion.

[00:47:07] Mike: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. So Joanna, I was just wondering what services are you offering these days and how can people get in touch with you? So I 
[00:47:16] Joanna: offer one-on-one coaching and also coaching for couples. I also host a self loaded team for PDs, so you can reach out to me through p ds being a member.

[00:47:29] Joanna: You have access to to book a session with PDs coaches, and I am one of them. And also you can reach out to me through my website. Joanna 
[00:47:41] Mike: joanna lock.com. Okay, perfect. And we'll put that in the show notes as well. And Most of our viewers or listeners in p ds know what PS is. I just wanna clarify pd S'S personal development school, 

[00:47:55] Joanna: Created by Ta 
[00:47:56] Mike: Gibson.
[00:47:57] Mike: Created by Ta Gibson for sure. Okay. Well that's amazing. Thank you so much, Joanna, for your time today. Thank you. You get Thank 
[00:48:03] Joanna: you for having me. It was a pleasure. 

[00:48:06] Mike: Yeah, for sure. And I hope our listeners can get some good tips from that. Yes. And we know how to reach Joanna if you want to get in touch with her.
[00:48:13] Mike: And just thanks again. Really appreciate it. And have a wonderful 
[00:48:17] Joanna: day.